One of a few new bikes that Surly launched (or will launch soon) from Saddle Drive, the Pack Rat has arrived. Aptly named, the Pack Rat is all about brining your gear along – only on the front of your bike rather than the rear. Technically, the Pack Rat is in the style of a randonneuring bike, but in a typically Surly way, they’ve gone about it with their own style.
High STA is a way to reduce reach (at the cost of natural/optimal pedaling angle), so it makes sense to do that for all of their smaller frame sizes (anything <50cm ETT, imo).
Keeping the same STA means that all of their 26" frames can use the same rear triangles, gaining efficiency in mitering/welding.
STA does not alter reach, it alters top tube length. I know some people will use the term “reach” to refer to how far the rider has to reach to the handlebars when seated, but that is not the generally accepted use of the word.
Also, I disagree with anyone who states that a change in STA equals a change in bike fit. With layback posts allowing +/- 25mm of adjustment, plus the saddle rails offering another 25mm+ range, it is unlikely that any of the commonly used STAs will put you outside the range that can be completely compensated for with a simple saddle adjustment. Until those adjustments are maxxed out, then STA is not the limiting factor in achieving a given seated pedaling position.
I really hope they do as they did with the LHT and offer the 26″ wheels across the board. A 58cm frame with clearance for 26×2.3″ (60mm) slicks, and some way to tension the chain for SS/Rohloff, is my current dream. And Surly confirmed something I’ve long suspected in their blog post – companies feel legally compelled to beef up frames to work with disc brakes. I want to build the lightest possible steel all-road bike around a Rohloff hub (which is not light at all) and I keep coming back to rim brakes (v-brakes for me) in order to get a lighter and livelier frame.
Surly has a price point to hit, which is why their disc bikes may be significantly overbuilt (if they are to begin with).
Companies feel compelled to make things that don’t break. There are no “legal compliance constraints” with disc brakes that aren’t there for anything else. If they are “beefing up” just for legal reasons, that a poor excuse. They should be “beefing up” based on design and test studies to ensure the things don’t fail. Surly’s blog, for better or worse, is also a marketing piece and seems targeted to a specific audience.
Anyway, I don’t disagree that at a price point, disc options may be heavier or harsher (especially on steel forks). I wouldn’t base your decision on that though. You really need to ride different options and not base it on preconceived notions of how a disc bike will ride vs rim brake. A 0.5-1 lb difference isn’t going to matter on an bike designed for some degree of loaded touring to begin with.
No what I am saying is that Surly’s blog post makes it seem disc brakes have all these extra superfluous lawyer driven constraints. That is simply untrue. Yes the tests are different (and more of them) which can make testing cost higher. Everything still needs to be designed correctly, disc or rim. And it’s not like they don’t make a disc design. They are simply making excuses.
This BS halfway dropout spacing is silly. I’m nearly over Surly in general, because of traditionalist crap like this, and their reluctance to ditch brake bosses on Ogre/Troll. Who cares if it fits BOTH 130 and 135? Just pick one. Nearly all riders stick with their original wheels for the bike’s lifetime anyways. Why no disc brakes?! Between the BFD and this, they’re losing it.
Shafty,
Indeed, the people who just want to “pick one” have about 1000 odd bikes to choose from. Surly is for the rest of us. The tinkerers, the rat-roders, the broke-ish bike nerds, and the big boned guys and gals, the victims of brow beating bikeshop know-it-alls. They make bikes for the, “oh shit, I just cracked my ancient Trek 9000 that I’ve been riding to work for ten years; do you guys have a frame that is reliable but will accept all my old parts!?” guy. Yes, yes we do. Surly, if you’re listening, keep the godd*mn brake bosses! If you don’t…I’ll have to break out my artisanal voodoo doll collection! “Who cares” you ask? I care. Give these weirdos some credit, they’ve been ahead of the curve so many times (fatbikes, plus bikes, 29’ers). I say, keep up the good work and listen to those with positive and instructive criticism!
If all you’ve got is name calling and a repeat of an uncommon fringe case for an argument, I’ll say you’ve proven my point as easily. I’d say it’s quite a sign when your ancient bike cracks. It’s probably worn in other areas too. It might be time to move on! How much is somebody saving when they replace half their drivetrain, cables all around, headset, new stem, frame/fork and then shop labor rate on top of it? I get the tack you’re taking, it seems to come from a place of resisting wastefulness, but it’s not always best for the customer long-term.
And really, if someone has to replace a wheel(an old one at that), what’s the big deal replacing it? You talk as though people typically maintain they’re bikes perfectly, and the only reason they’re retired is for frame failure. Why is cobbling so highly regarded?
Yeah, that’s right. Preach it Shafty! I’ve never understood the desire to cobble along some barely functioning unsafe bicycle. Things wear out and reach their intended life cycle, sometimes you just need to move on and get over it.
@Ray “victims of brow beating bike shop know-it-alls” Seriously? It’s a bike, you wore it out. You rode your bike a lot, you should be stoked.
Gentlemen, gentlemen! I think there’s been some miscommunication here!
My point is this: The fringe case! Exactly! Why the hell not? I’m not going to argue that Surly makes bikes for everyone. Sure, they’re weird. They’re kooky. But why disparage (as you did) a company for giving people the option!? Do you hate options? No, you don’t, I’m sure of it!
A thought experiment, a ‘fringe case’ if you will. A scenario familiar to shops that deal with-service, have the pleasurable patronage of commuters–as you so aptly put, bikes wear out, so do their parts, etc. Now, does it make sense for someone who has, say, just invested in a IGH/daynamo wheelset, lovingly built by their shop for their trusty old commuter to junk the whole thing and get a fill-in-the-blank whatever you’d have them buy? Maybe they could just take that wheelset, add a Surly frame, keep their old parts and have a great day! Or maybe not. But why not have the option!?
When was the last time you wore out a handlebar? On your commuter bike? How about a stem? A seatpost? Hold on, hold on, we’re almost there! That’s why cobbling is so great, because parts are awesome. We’ve all got boxes of stuff laying around. You could probably go to your garage, or to a shop, fill a trash bag with random parts, toss a Surly in there, shake it around and come out with a completely rideable bike! And how much does it save? Now that’s a question worth asking! I guess it’s nice to have the option to find out.
Kenneth, sir. Surely you know that some shops harbor an unseemly conceitedness towards you and I. Doubtless you also know that sometimes it’s hard to make a good joke. Well, in case you missed it, that was my intent. Not everyone who ends up riding a Surly is a hipster weirdo cobble-freak. Some people ride them because someone with a beard and bad manners told them they should. And she might’ve even been right (joke). Bicycles are not human beings, they don’t just die. There are so many decent-even super awesome-parts out there. Good thing someone is thinking about how to use them rather than how to get you rolling on some new carbon hoops (not that I don’t love hoops).
Many happy returns, Shafty and Kenneth.
Wow!
The End.
If your riding a steel bike you are already a fringe case. I say that as someone that owns five steel bikes. The last non steel bike I owned was a 2001 Konami Stuff with an aluminum frame. My nicest bike is a 2014 Jamis Dragon pro made from Reynolds 853 steel. Absolutely lovely bike. 120mm travel hardtail with a slackish geometry that weights under 25 pounds but can take the beating of a much bigger bike. Oh and its cobbled together. It has carbon wheels, xtr drive train, Thompson post, Ritchey WCS Trail bar and stem, and a double crankset. It works perfect for my situation, because it was built for my situation. A cobbled together bike doesn’t imply it’s clapped out. Grow up and let people enjoy their rides even if it’s not your fancy.
This bike seems alright, but Surly just makes too many bikes that are too similar. Crosscheck, straggler, lht, lht disc, this, plus – you can setup most of their mountain bikes the same way!! focus guys. focus. you dont need 6+ bikes that all do the same thing.
As for the dropout spacing, eh, whatever, it doesn’t make much difference for usability either way. What i can’t stand are forward facing semi horizontal dropouts… WHY??
Amen! I’m a long-time Surly lover/owner, but there are too many bikes in their lineup that do the same thing. Want a bike that can take a front load and ride fine? Try a cross-check, straggler, karate monkey, troll, lht, ecr, wednesday, etc… Purchase a fork with mounts and stick it on your pacer, krampus, even a steamroller. There’s pretty much every tire size you could want already.
Surly makes solid, heavy bikes that all do basically the same thing (in their category)
This bike already exists *sighhhhh
I liked the dropouts on my Cross Check, and had no problem with the 132.5 spacing.
The dropouts let me easily run fixed or geared, and with fixed, they were long enough to accommodate a cog change by sliding the wheel back and forth (like the Riv Quickbeam).
132.5 spacing was simply transparent. I never noticed anything negative about it, except I could either road or mountain wheels.
Too bad this frame doesn’t have big sizes for tall guys like me, but I’m guessing the stack would still be too low anyway.
“132.5 spacing was simply transparent. I never noticed anything negative about it…”
+100 I had a Cross Check with the same spacing and never saw any disadvantages. The potential versatility was nice and there was no down side. Why pick only one?
Years ago during the transition from 6/7-speed to 8-speed, several manufactures provided 127.5 mm rear spacing to allow either 126 mm or 130 mm hubs on the same frame. Again, no disadvantages.
“…Sure, they’re weird. They’re kooky. But why disparage (as you did) a company for giving people the option!?”
Why? Because I would love it if a company like Surly said “Instead of wasting time & $$$ on board meetings about designing/testing/building & promoting a new niche bicycle that we pretty much already make (2 or 3x over) we have streamlined our already extensive line of similar bicycles and now offer them at an even lower price for the new year. We even got over our fear of a slightly angled toptube on our cross bikes because anyone racing a surly either doesn’t gaf or know the reason the tt should be flat & we fixed the ill-fitting geo & stack/reach on the Straggler. We even made a better non-proprietary fork/rack mount system”
Frame stack on a 58cm Pack Rat is only 561mm.
For comparison, frame stack on a 58cm LHT is 606mm.
So the handlebars on a 58cm Pack Rat would be almost 2″ lower than the LHT.
(with respect to the crank)
I really want to like this bike but this would make the ride position not nearly
as comfortable as a LHT or other bike with a larger stack.
Why is the frame stack on these bikes so low?
