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CPA sends notice to UCI, says riders just don’t want disc brakes

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Tred prototype disc brake rotor shield for road bikes to protect riders from cuts and burns

Until something like the T’red disc brake cover shown above becomes more mainstream (or, at least used in the peloton), it seems riders just aren’t ready for disc brakes. After one rider claims he was cut by a disc brake rotor during a late crash in the Tour of Abu Dhabi, the debate is heating up again. The UCI was (is) allowing disc brakes in early season races as a test, with the caveat that the rotors have rounded edges. But, the Association of Professional Cyclists says that’s not good enough, and now they are taking legal action. Full press release below…

PRESS RELEASE: After the first races of the season in which the testing of the disc brakes are officially started without applying the preventive security measures required by the riders, the CPA has sent a legal warning to the UCI. In that document, the legal department of the International Rider Association inform the UCI that the CPA is very concerned about the situation that has arisen since the authorization to use the disc brakes during the races.

“The trial has started – it is written – before that some appropriate test were conducted on the risks to which the riders are exposed in the event of accidental contact with the discs (for example during a group fall).”

In this regard the document recalls how the CPA and its representatives in the Equipment Commission have repeatedly stressed the need to round the profile of the discs and cover them with some protections. The fact that the UCI did not take into account these suggestions, according to the legal department of the CPA, make the UCI inevitably responsible, for the permission they gave to use the disc brakes without applying the necessary preventive measures, for any damage or accident that should happen to the riders.

The CPA calls on the International Cycling Union to review their position on this point and to subordinate the possibility of using the disc brakes during the races to the application of a safety cover or to measures that can exclude an accidental contact of the discs to the body of the riders. Failing that the CPA will proceed with all the necessary legal actions to safeguard the health and safety of its members, to which, as workers, must be guaranteed the adoption of all the appropriate preventive measures required by the legislation on the safety at work (eg. EEC directive 89/391).

“With the Equipment Commission we tried in every way the path of dialogue through the repeated letters and meetings we had,” said Gianni Bugno, President of the CPA. “Now we feel compelled to act in a stronger way to be heard. As we have always said we are not against the disc brakes but against the non-implementation of the security measures that the majority of the riders asked before making the tests on the disc brakes in the races.”

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134 Comments
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mnorris122
7 years ago

Whatever, if they’d prefer to descend mountains in the snow in the Giro with rim brakes on carbon rims rather then disc brakes then that’s their business.

Marc L
Marc L
7 years ago
Reply to  mnorris122

To a point- but in doing so they become a danger to both themselves and others.

At the end of the day, they only have their jobs because they’re advertising their sponsors’ products. Which today include disc brakes. Absent any real evidence that discs are dangerous (unlike, say, wet carbon rim brakes), the riders’ organization is losing credibility with every press release.

John P
John P
7 years ago
Reply to  Marc L

Here, here. Like many professions they seem to be taking themselves way to serious and forgetting why they are racing. I’m not saying they should be exposed to unreasonable risk but the CPA is being ridiculous.

Pinko
Pinko
7 years ago
Reply to  John P

You obviously do not follow races, as accidents where riders have been sliced by disk brakes have been happening. Last week, kittel (if you know who he is) rotor sliced the shoes and cut the foot of another rider during a crash. Or a while ago, some rider from moviestar had his knee sliced open-like 50 stitches.

Stephen B
Stephen B
7 years ago
Reply to  Pinko

Pinko, I know who Kittle is and I am sure that his disc did not cut anyone’s shoe. Before you spout more rubbish have a look at this:comment image

David
David
7 years ago
Reply to  Pinko

There’s absolutely nothing but wild speculation that Kittel’s rotor cut the shoe. In fact, from watching the videos and looking at the left shoe, it’s hard to see how that could have occurred. The Movistar rider, Ventoso (if you even know who he is), also made wild, speculative claims but the injuries don’t add up. (deleted)

Dylan
Dylan
7 years ago
Reply to  Pinko

You seem to be confused, perhaps you don’t follow the races either?

1) The crash footage from last week doesn’t show Doull’s foot coming anywhere near Kittel’s disc. Attempts to reproduce the damage to his shoe using a disc brake suggest the disc couldn’t be responsible. There is also a brown (rust?) mark on the shoe which suggests the cut is more likely from something sharp on the barricade he hit.

2) Maes (the rider who cut his knee and claimed it was from a disc), was riding for Etixx (not Movistar). Footage from his crash shows his knee hit the ground, with no disc equipped bikes in a position that could be responsible for his injury.

3)Ventoso who is from Movistar (not Moviestar) claimed he was cut by a disc on his _left_ shin (not his knee). It was initially reported that the cut happened when he crashed, but no disc-equipped rider went down in that section. Later he said he didn’t notice the cut instantly, and neither he nor the rider of the other bike crashed at that time… but to cut your left shin on a disc without crashing would have to be a major acrobatic feat.

ebbe
ebbe
7 years ago
Reply to  Pinko

There have actually been four claims of disc brake injuries. Two were flat out untrue, since there wasn’t even a disc equipped bike around. The other two have been researched by forensics experts. One has been debunked (probably a chainring), the other looks like it will be debunked as well (probably a barrier-foot). That’s a veracity score of a shockingly low 50% at best, and 0% at worst.

ol shel
ol shel
7 years ago
Reply to  John P

OK, so what is their REAL motivation?

Are they owned by the rubber-brake-pad lobby?

Are they Rim Brake Supremacists?

Fred
Fred
7 years ago
Reply to  ol shel

No they are just roadies the most conservative, stubborn, least open minded cyclists on the planet. Heck they are still rocking bike geometry/sizing which is close to 100years old! Yeah the UCI does have it’s part in restricting road bike evolution as well.

Lost Kiwi
Lost Kiwi
7 years ago

I am curious if the CPA are pushing for guards on chainrings as well? And why not spoke covers while they are at it.

anonymous
anonymous
7 years ago
Reply to  Lost Kiwi

Need chainring bash guards too.

1111
7 years ago
Reply to  Lost Kiwi

It’s only because of that darned gravity that I hit the ground

alvis
alvis
7 years ago
Reply to  1111

Lycra? You want me to ride a bike at 60Km/hr with 150 others at the same time Where the chance of an accident is high wearing lycra shorts? You must be mad! I’m calling my union.

WhatchyouKnowAboutEthic
WhatchyouKnowAboutEthic
7 years ago

How does a rounded disc not solve this problem? There has been no proof that discs have caused any sort of injury, and discs should be the least of anyones worry..

So these “riders” that descend down mountains reaching motorcycle speeds wearing next to nothing are afraid of a rounded disc? The UCI is a joke.

Mr Pink
Mr Pink
7 years ago

Shows you what you know about the Pro Tour riders. You, the person who so easily ridicules the men who make their living riding bikes at this level yet you don’t give your name. (deleted)

Batman
Batman
7 years ago
Reply to  Mr Pink

Mr. Pot, I’d like to introduce you to Mr. Kettle.

Collin
Collin
7 years ago
Reply to  Batman

lol, as soon as I read his comment I looked at his name expecting to see Ron. I’ve never met someone with the last name pink in my life.

lop
lop
7 years ago
Reply to  Batman

I wish this site had a voting system, so I could see just how unpopular his anonymous comment is.

WhatchyouKnowAboutEthic
WhatchyouKnowAboutEthic
7 years ago
Reply to  Mr Pink

This in no way was bashing the riders. At all.. It was calling BS on the “riders just don’t want discs” comment. I think that’s fabricated by the UCI.

But continue to be mad. That’s fine.

Giver eh!
Giver eh!
7 years ago

Boo hoo…Ride what you are paid to ride!

me
me
7 years ago

I also think that e-bikes should be banned from Bike Rumor. Is it going to happen? No.

fiddlestixob
7 years ago
Reply to  me

had a good laugh at this, thank you

Anonymous
Anonymous
7 years ago

Yeah, so amature riders just don’t want to be pro.

shafty
shafty
7 years ago

How about the force helmet manufactures to adhere to DOT+Snell regulation(or equivalent) as well? It’s not as though before disc brakes that riding was without risk. And one more thing… WHAT ABOUT MOUNTAIN BIKES! THEY ALL HAVE DISCS!

The CPA must be blind.

Andrew Deane
7 years ago
Reply to  shafty

CX is almost all disc too. Only road bikes haven’t made the switch b/c they are whiners.

OriginalMarkV
OriginalMarkV
7 years ago
Reply to  Andrew Deane

When was the last time you saw a CX or downhill rider fall and cause a 10 rider pile-up at 35mph? I’m not saying that disc rotors are truly a hazard (because there is no real data from an independent study to show either way), but trite comparisons to CX or mtb show that you don’t actually understand what happens when a crash occurs in a mass start road race.

shafty
shafty
7 years ago
Reply to  OriginalMarkV

Is your first worry when imagining a crash at 35mph disc brake rotors? why are any sharp or pointy parts allowed? There are plenty of parts that could cause great injury in a crash involving many riders, but the problem with that, is it’s a fringe scenario.

Rim brakes are only safe by default. They haven’t completely outlined a safe scenario, and surely one or two injuries doesn’t now disqualify parts from being used.

Bladed spokes anyone? Those are sharp. If you crash while in the small ring, the large ring is sharp as well.

Collin
Collin
7 years ago
Reply to  shafty

How many times do you see a pile up of 40 riders when everyone is in the small ring (ie going up a really steep long climb) it doesn’t happen.

alvis
alvis
7 years ago
Reply to  Collin

large sprocket? access is similar to rear disc, never heard of this toothed spinning disc of death being a concern.

1111
7 years ago
Reply to  OriginalMarkV

Then you’d know that CX does mass starts, and pile ups, too.

meowmix093284
7 years ago
Reply to  OriginalMarkV

cx riders crash and pile up just like road racers do

mountain bikers have perfected crashing on each other as well as going over cliffs, into trees, and kissing boulders

I have yet to see someone get cut on a disc

It’s at the tipping point where it’s not cost effective to continue making frames for rim brakes as the market has moved on.

b_p_t
b_p_t
7 years ago

If you are not making a living riding bikes, why do you care what the pros ride?

Sevo
Sevo
7 years ago
Reply to  b_p_t

Best comment ever. Dead on.

boo
boo
7 years ago
Reply to  Sevo

because we ride what they ride. if they dont ride discs progress will stop. why do you think it took so long for road bikes to have discs? and not even all if them and wheels arent optimized and so on and so on.

knarc
knarc
7 years ago
Reply to  boo

hahaha, progress is on disc brakes?

ebbe
ebbe
7 years ago
Reply to  b_p_t

Because, following the UCIs decision last year, some federations have also banned them in sportives and in training. That was then reversed when the UCIs decision was reversed, and disc brakes were allowed in sportives and training again. But if disc brakes are now again banned by UCI, it’s very likely these federations will follow the UCI yet again, and ban them in sportives and for training yet again. Obviously the average Jane and Joe can’t just get a free new bike whenever a rule is changed. So actually, the impact of a ban for the millions of recreational riders is much bigger then it is for the approx 1000 elite pros in the world

1111
7 years ago
Reply to  b_p_t

Because the decision trickles down to any event where someone gets UCI points, or like triathlon – they blindly follow the UCI lead. The word went out for the local road racing this year that if you want to take part – you won’t be allowed on the course with a disc brake bike.

Scott Rhodes
7 years ago

Why doesn’t the CPA send a legal letter regarding compulsory body armor for all road races? Seems to me that road rash is the number one avoidable injury for the Pro peleton.

Andrew Deane
7 years ago

Yet XC MTB racing has had them for years and no one has been decapitated. Roadies are whiners.

Anonymous
Anonymous
7 years ago

Those are going to become the new dork discs.

Ryan
Ryan
7 years ago

These guys need to stop fighting it and ride what consumer are demanding. The manufacturers will stop catering to the UCI regulations if they do not tread lightly. There is less and less need for factories to back pro race teams in this catagory to sell bikes.

CyclistA
CyclistA
7 years ago

I don’t think I know any recreational riders that want disc brakes either. Crashes occur from bad bike handlers, aggressive and dangerous rider choices, or poor course conditions. Disc brakes will not fix this. Yes, a guy 4 rows back will probably avoid the crash easier, but it won’t prevent the initial incident.

Good descenders take calculated risks. They know their limits and know how far they can go. Mediocre descendents trying to keep up or gain time take risks that they do not have the skill to pull off. They crash. They will go faster into the turns with disc brakes, but still not have the ability to calculate the lines and speeds. Those crashes will still occur. They’re on the rivet and trying to get results, sometimes at all costs.

And getting flat during a race? I can’t even imagine. Good luck chasing back on. Besides, until 1 standard is accepted, wheel changes will be a nightmare.

Shane
Shane
7 years ago
Reply to  CyclistA

The UCI has stated that all neutral support wheels will be 100×12 front, 142×12 rear, and with 160mm rotors.

Cyclist B
Cyclist B
7 years ago
Reply to  CyclistA

Changing a disc wheel with a flat is really not that difficult. In fact I would wager that a monkey can be trained to accomplish this simple task.
For the most part after a racer flats he is just standing on the side of the road for thirty seconds to a minute before the team car even shows up to help. Standing there, doing nothing, wasting time. Add a little self reliance and desire to help ones own situation there will be zero time lost with disc wheel changes.

StephenM
StephenM
7 years ago
Reply to  CyclistA

I don’t think I know any recreational riders that don’t want disc brakes.

vanderprinsen
vanderprinsen
7 years ago
Reply to  StephenM

I do

Bill63
Bill63
7 years ago
Reply to  StephenM

More than anything else, recreational cyclists want consistent componentry standards. Axle spacing, axle diameter, disc diameter, QR or through axle, BB standard (especially those of us that do all our own maintenance).

Rolly
Rolly
7 years ago
Reply to  StephenM

I do and i have. Two pairs of road wheels with discs. One alu for plain-shitty_road-practicies, second carbon pair for mountains or comps. There’s maybe few cons (ok, i lazy and hate bleed them even once :D), but advantages too. For example looking on rotors after couple week vacation with bike in mountains i deffo glad i have disc brakes, becouse long downhills ruin regular brake pads and rims pretty effective. Disc brakes in that situation is really useful thing. Not need to think about all this stuff until end of season, and then just check state of parts. They play much longer and save rims.

Robin
Robin
7 years ago
Reply to  CyclistA

Apparently you haven’t interviewed a lot of recreational cyclists because there are a lot of recreational cyclists riding and wanting disc brakes. It is scientific error to assume that the braking limits for disc brakes are the same as they are for rim brakes. As happened when GP motorcycles went from drum to disc brakes, the pro peloton’s brake markers will move closer to corners when they move to disc brakes. It won’t happen because of differences in braking power. It’ll happen because of the improvement in brake modulation. They’ll likewise make the adjustments necessary to insure proper corner entry speeds.

Given your arguments, there’s no reason to ever try to improve what “pros” race.

Greg
Greg
7 years ago
Reply to  Robin

He said he doesn’t know any rec riders that don’t want disc brakes, meaning all the rec riders he knows want disc brakes. He’s agreeing with you (I think)

Dylan Sutton
Dylan Sutton
7 years ago
Reply to  CyclistA

Recreational rider who wants disc brakes, reporting for duty. Although I have no immediate intention to replace my road bike (which is 8 years old but still perfectly good), my next road bike will surely have disc brakes, they are just obviously better.

I’ve had them on all my MTBs since 2003, and have a 180mm front disc on my commuter (1991 raleigh technium with a new fork), and while my rim brakes work perfectly well when it’s dry (C24CL alloy rims, Ultegra calipers, swiss-stop pads), I genuinely miss the predictability of the discs when it gets wet.

As for changing a flat in a race, the difference between rim brakes with ‘QR’ axles (which arguably should lose the ‘Q’ since it’s no longer permitted to file off the lawyer tabs) and through axle with disc brakes is negligible. The through axle takes care of aligning the wheel properly, and getting the disk in between the pads isn’t a problem any bigger than getting a 25mm tire in between your brake shoes (you did remember to open the calipers all the way, didn’t you?). And without a skewer getting in the way, it’s far easier to remove and replace a rear wheel.

ChrisC
ChrisC
7 years ago
Reply to  CyclistA

In my experience* the only recreational riders who – cost of the upgrade aside – do not want discs fall into two categories:

1) Wanna be guys that are more worried about looking “PRO” than anything else.

2) People who haven’t yet tried discs on the road.

*YMMV

David
David
7 years ago
Reply to  CyclistA

Another commentor that clearly hasn’t even ridden or worked on disc brakes…

Cherk Chup
7 years ago
Reply to  CyclistA

Proud owner of disc brake road bikes here. Just love the single finger ease of braking during the rewarding down hill cornering.

I don’t care what the pros are using, but recreation riders do want disc brake.

Maxx
Maxx
7 years ago

Quite simply, Campagnolo haven’t got their disc brake act together yet.

See where all the ‘whiners’ disappear once they roll out their series products for the market.

Mr. P
7 years ago
Reply to  Maxx

Wow. That would explain a lot…

RobertW
RobertW
7 years ago

The spin in this article was typical. “It seems riders just aren’t ready….”. Why don’t you coin a shameful phrase for disc brake deniers like Discophobics. Because they are AFRAID of what is INEVITABLE and one day they will grow out of their fear and embrace the cult of the disc.

Shun the discophobes, shun shun.

Kernel Flickitov
Kernel Flickitov
7 years ago

I’m perfectly fine having access to better brakes than a professional.

Jeb
Jeb
7 years ago

@Maxx nailed it. Campy is late to the game and is pushing teams they sponsor to lobby against discs. I was not a disc fan on the road because everything I rode was crap, a huge step backward from calipers. The new stuff Is dialed and light, I’m in.

Mr Pink
Mr Pink
7 years ago
Reply to  Jeb

Hey (deleted) you may want to do a head count of how many pro peleton bikes are Campy. (deleted) campy hasn’t won a tour in years, but that’s because shimano & sram have paid for their spots and dominate the peleton.

Still, Campy is still the best. But they don’t have the influence you imply.

ITK
ITK
7 years ago
Reply to  Mr Pink

“numb nuts”? Go stand in the corner until you can play nice like a good boy.

Dallas
Dallas
7 years ago
Reply to  Mr Pink

Nibali Had Campy in 2014.

ebbe
ebbe
7 years ago
Reply to  Mr Pink

Campagnolo hasn’t won a Tour de France in years, because Froome wins them all. Having said that, Campagnolo-sponosered teams took
2014 Tour and Giro
2015 Vuelta
2016 Giro and Vuelta
Which is quite impressive for a brand that only sponsors around 20% of WT teams. And you can rest assured they have massive influence on the teams they do sponsor

D P
D P
7 years ago

This comment thread has been pretty sad so far. Plus, this site’s pre-disposed attitude toward these “not ready” riders has been far from neutral and journalistic. It, in fact, makes them sound like the big bike brands trying to shove this disc stuff down our throats.

If you want disc road, fine. There are some advantages to them. ( IMO not enough to out weigh the disadvantages, but some none the less. )

But why the disparaging comments aimed at pro’s who don’t want them? Is it because you drank the kool aid and know you have a disc brake road bike that the big S was telling you is the future? That very bike now shines with silver billboards that scream “recreational rider” & “my bike does not, and never will, look like Sagan’s” 😉

If those brakes actually do get banned for good, your investment has taken a hit. Resale will drop as riders “want what the Pro’s have”. It’s a shame really, and the blame is with the big brands that saw a easy way to “force” riders into entire new bikes. Not looking past the initial bubble. Or maybe they did look past it and sold you TWO new bikes…

boo
boo
7 years ago
Reply to  D P

maybe you havent really used disc brakes. the difference is too good to ignore even if you hate the idea of discs. that’s why the comments are like that.

knarc
knarc
7 years ago
Reply to  D P

Let me guess, now is disc for better braking + new parts and tools. After that, 29″ wheels for better rolling + new parts and tools and in the end 1×12…13…14 system + new parts and tools. What a progress!!!!!

Dylan Sutton
Dylan Sutton
7 years ago
Reply to  D P

I couldn’t personally give a toss whether my bike looks like what Sagan is riding, but other people do, and hence what the pros are allowed to ride influences what I’m able to buy. Thankfully it’s now too late to stuff the genie back into the bottle, and it’s unlikely hydraulic road groupsets will go away again, so regardless of what the UCI does I’ll be able to have it on my next bike. As for investments taking a hit, the kind of personality that cares about their bike looking on-trend is probably used to much quicker depreciation on their car, wardrobe etc.

Maybe the disparaging comments are from frustrated would-be road bike buyers who saw the light about disc brakes while riding their MTB and have been wanting a top-shelf road bike with disc brakes for over a decade, but all the manufacturers (even those you accuse of ‘shoving stuff down our throats’) have been woefully slow in drip-feeding it to us? I wanted this stuff on my current road bike which I bought 8 years ago!

The frustration is compounded by attitudes like the CPA are currently demonstrating, whereby in their parallel universe the assertions of some riders about the dangers of discs are the tail wagging the dog of the industry, even though the prime ‘evidence’ of said danger has been pretty well discredited (in each of the three well-known cases of Ventoso, Maes and now Doull). I understand some pros don’t want them, that’s fine, but lying about the ‘danger’ of them is thoroughly deserving of disrespect.

Cherk Chup
7 years ago
Reply to  Dylan Sutton

This.

ebbe
ebbe
7 years ago
Reply to  Dylan Sutton

Exactly. And also don’t forget that following the UCIs decisions, some national federations had banned disc brakes in sportives. I can obviously live with the pros riding their races using inferior brakes, because I’ll never ride in these races anyway. But I don’t like to be forced to use inferior brakes myself, thank you very much

Pete
Pete
7 years ago

Pffft, the riders should instead be sending UCI a demand to get the motor vehicles the hell out of their way. Name one rider that’s been killed by a rotor.

Tom
Tom
7 years ago

I can’t tell if everyone here is trolling for bike manufacturers, or if they seriously think they know better than pros that have been racing at that level for over a decade. It’s a style of brake that isn’t perfect for road racing, get over it. You aren’t a pro. No one should be forced to use something in their job that is untested and potentially dangerous, especially if the only reason it’s been introduced is to force a new segment of upgradeable bicycle gear to those not bright enough to ask if they really need it.

Andrew Spaulding
7 years ago
Reply to  Tom

Disk brakes, untested and potentially dangerous. Are you serious?

Lieutenant Dan
Lieutenant Dan
7 years ago
Reply to  Tom

The CPA is trolling for Campy, the only manufacturer that doesn’t think disc brakes make sense, and the one that still holds sway in elite racing. The arguments are easily shown to be without merit. The outcry is exaggerated and blown out of proportion. Everyone else sees it for the absurdity it is.

ChrisC
ChrisC
7 years ago
Reply to  Tom

FWIW, I raced at a high level (not pro, but national class amateur) for about 12 years and I’ve been riding for 30+

Discs are better and are ABSOLUTELY the last thing I would worry about in a high-speed crash. I’ll take the very, very small chance of a deep cut over slamming my head, shoulder, or back into a curb or lamppost…

Maybe I’m wrong about this, but I believe that the riders are opposed because they (probably) fear what they do not yet understand. Also, European pros are notoriously opposed to change (e.g. – historic opposition to the following: index shifting, clipless pedals, helmets, TT bars, etc.)

Sean
Sean
7 years ago
Reply to  Tom

Bike industry troll here…. Are you a pro rider Tom?

Ken
Ken
7 years ago

I’m an amateur road racer and I abhor the idea of disc brakes. They aren’t like bladed spokes in a wheel that will be stopped by a body part and there is no plausible alternative to chain rings at the moment. Guys go down all the time in my races and I need to go to work on Monday. Why race with an exposed spinning blade when there’s no need? Maybe the risk of getting sliced is offset by the better stopping power than would avoid some crashes, but I doubt it since most crashes in my races are rider error. USAC should ban them in amateur racing. They are a lost finger away from a world of hurt for the sport.

Robin
Robin
7 years ago
Reply to  Ken

By the gods, that sounds deadly! How many lives will be lost to spinning blades?! Your argument is impressive, but sadly fear based arguments don’t rate next to objective arguments.

Andrew Spaulding
7 years ago
Reply to  Ken

Brake rotors being so close to the axle don’t actually spin very fast. You’re far more likely to lose a finger in spinning spikes that you are ever going to get ‘sliced’

Tomi
Tomi
7 years ago
Reply to  Ken

To cause injury you’d have to apply :
-lot of pressure
-time, several seconds.

Please explain to me how a rider could get one of his body part stuck right against a rotor, apply pressure to that rotor with the rotor continuously spinning ? I’d would need for the rider of the disc braked bike to stay upright and drag the injured rider for 50 to 100meters.

Have you ever seen a rider getting stuck and dragged by the bike of another rider in or outside a race ? Any pro will have more chance of getting hit by a lightning stroke or win at the lottery than this.

Did you ever tried to cut ham with a ham slicer machine (a machine whose sole purpose is cutting) whose blade is worn out ? Think how ineffective a disc brake rotor would be at slicing things.

The worse thing that can happen is akin to a road rash. World tour cyclists are used to road rash.

The CPA and the pro riders who are member of it are just losing the tiny amount of credibility they had already.

gringo
gringo
7 years ago
Reply to  Ken

Please note use of ”I’m an amateur road racer”, followed by expert opinion.

Lieutenant Dan
Lieutenant Dan
7 years ago
Reply to  Ken

How are they not like spokes being stopped by a body part?

ebbe
ebbe
7 years ago
Reply to  Ken

Right, bladed spokes are “stopped by a body part” (when spinning freely) but you give yourself the liberty to completely ignore the dozen movies doing the rounds that prove the exact same for rotors? Please get your arguments together before commenting, Ken 😉

Of course there’s a more important issue here and that is the perception of “looking pro”. Many, many serious chain ring injuries have happened in the pro peloton. Why not demand a cover for the chain rings? They exist, and you can buy those covers at any Halfords. I’ll tell you why not: Because it doesn’t “look pro”. Since most elite pros will never win a Tour de France or monument, looking pro is the prime concern for most elite riders. Helmets didn’t “look pro” in the 90s so they made up all sorts of “arguments” about how dangerous helmets were. Same for “brifters”, TT bars in TTs, etc. While other things that were dangerous as hell but did look pro were accepted, such as Spinaci bars (in mass start stages), dangerously light frames and Spinergy wheels.

MTB (long time ago) and CX (last year) have now accepted that disc brakes in fact do look pro. And since they’ve accepted that, all the big issues they made up (and believe me, they did protest fiercely as well) just vanished. As soon as roadies accept that disc brakes look pro, they’ll stop complaining. Not because anything tangible actually changed, but their because perception changed.

Jeb
Jeb
7 years ago

By the way, it’s no coincidence that most of the anti-disc group is associated with Campy. CPA rider rep Adam Hansen is a Campy sponsored rider. Fran Ventoso is a Campy guy. Also the only other vocal anti-disc guys (Sky) have to buy their Shimano stuff and are probably not thrilled to switch everything mid season. Follow the money.

knarc
knarc
7 years ago
Reply to  Jeb

Campy controls CPA.
Campy is the beast. : P

Lieutenant Dan
Lieutenant Dan
7 years ago
Reply to  Jeb

This is so clearly a last ditch effort by a dying patriarch of the sport to maintain relevance.

Cherk Chup
7 years ago
Reply to  Jeb

I’m surprised and sad to hear the comment from Hansen.

He has been rather reasonable and coming from an engineering background. Couldn’t believe he didn’t provide solid proofs to back up his comment.

SMW
SMW
7 years ago

hang it up.. what a mess

Matthew
7 years ago

Disc brakes have a host of advantages over rim brakes in their use. It seems that nobody is disputing this. Between the UCI and the CPA it appears that the conversation about disc brakes either hasn’t happened; it should, or the message about disc brakes just hasn’t got through; somebody failed to communicate clearly. The single biggest resistance here is the c word – change. This is what happens when progress happens, or evolution. Bicycle racing is not a safe pursuit. Speed, and the sudden removal of it, can result in impact and maybe injury. Limiting the risks is the message that the UCI and CPA haven’t got clear. The investigations into reported injuries are incomplete and inconclusive resulting in allegations rather than proof. If the manufacturers want disc brakes in the peloton they will make whatever the rules demand. The rules will be the same for all and wheel changes, safety, speed, bike skill, and race excitement will all be managed accordingly. this is a softening up period where the inevitable decision has already been made and the soaking in of that decision is just getting through…and taking its time because some folk are putting their own brakes on it – probably wet carbon rims which, if you’ve had that experience (I have) the results aren’t pretty. Change – get used to it. Disc brakes are coming!

henriklein
7 years ago

just ban them. only bloody noobs want them.

Yerma
Yerma
7 years ago

What a funny thread. Disc brake are good, pro’s are idiots, it’s a Campy conspiracy…
Anyone who has followed pro road racing for a few years or a few decades knows that CPA is the only reason that domestiques are actually paid a fair wage, that they have retirement funds, etc. The issue (as numerous articles about it show) is two fold. The UCI not responding to the CPA’s concerns and when it did, choosing one that during the test period injured a rider.

Comparisons to xcountry mtb racing or cross are off the mark. When was the last time you saw 20 or more cross/mtb riders hit the pavement at 30mph?
Comparisons to chainrings is off the mark- typical crashes in the pro peloton happen when riders are in the big ring. The odds of the chain dropping to expose the big ring teeth AND a body part hitting it are pretty slim.
Look at the results of only a few pro teams using them. One severe laceration and with the “new” body part friendly radiused roter’s slicing through shoe leather /pleathor like butter.

As far as the Campy conspiracy, it would easy for them to license disc hubs from someone else and build their wheels around it if they “needed time” to produce their own.

For my part I respect these guys and if enough of them say that discs are a problem- it’s a problem.

Lieutenant Dan
Lieutenant Dan
7 years ago
Reply to  Yerma

Can you link us to the proof that they injured a rider? The claims don’t add up. So respect them all you want, but in the case of doping we’ve seen them to be untrustworthy at best.

“I’m not so convinced that a disc brake caused Ventoso’s injury because it’s on his left side,” said Copeland, who wrote a guest column in this week’s Cycling Weekly magazine.”

“The disc would’ve had to have been horizontal to make it possible, and Ventoso said that he didn’t even fall, but rammed into the back of the rider. To do that sort of deep cut you would have to fall hard.”

Yerma
Yerma
7 years ago
Reply to  Lieutenant Dan

Copeland’s comment is suspect for a few reasons, but mainly his team was one of the few using discs in the race. Obviously he want’s to deflect. Reading further he backpedals a bit and states that it could be possible. However he then suggests it could have been the aero spokes. Really? Not since Spinergys have “aero spokes” caused this kind of deep laceration. IMO this undermines his comment.
Frankly I’m willing to take the rider who actually experienced the crash’s version of the event rather than Copeland’s.

The most current incident linked below. I’m sure it was the are spokes… wink wink.
http://www.eurosport.com/cycling/backspin-disc-brake-debate-resurfaces-with-doull-incident-in-abu-dhabi_sto6074757/story.shtml

Lewis
Lewis
7 years ago
Reply to  Yerma

“One severe laceration and with the “new” body part friendly radiused roter’s slicing through shoe leather /pleathor like butter”

I think that has fairly conclusively been proved not to be the case by the helicopter footage.

Yerma
Yerma
7 years ago
Reply to  Lewis

Yes, I saw the Cyclingtips post about it with the 4 helicopter stills. However as Huang points out in the article…
“If discs are to be successfully implemented, it’s incumbent on the UCI to ensure the technology is safe for everyone involved, or to at least prove without a doubt to the naysayers that the risks aren’t as severe as some believe. That hasn’t happened yet.
At this point, in some ways it doesn’t matter whether Doull’s shoe was actually sliced by Kittel’s rotor or by something else. Until the UCI deals with the issues at hand, expect more of these sorts of stories as the renewed disc-brake trial gets further underway.

ebbe
ebbe
7 years ago
Reply to  Yerma

It’s quite hard to prove something is safe when people keep making up false claims of injuries caused and creating hysteria about those false claims, isn’t it? By the time the forensics report with a reasoned assessment comes out, they will have already moved on to the next false claim. It’s Trumpism, but in sports

Tomi
Tomi
7 years ago
Reply to  Yerma

Except the two cases you mention can and have been easily debunked.

Rotors are not harmful. Not more than spokes, tires and … rim calipers (try sticking your tires between a caliper and a tire). Still I find that the UCI and manufacturers doesn’t handle it very well. Even if they aren’t required from a pure safety point of view it would have been easy since last april from manufacturers to produce bashguards and most far etched concern by pro riders would have been eased. Plus manufacturers could have sold those bashguards/frame integration as more aero efficient with a 0.08watt / 48s advantage over 50km blah blah.

Ryan S.
Ryan S.
7 years ago

Don’t care, racing sucks.

ChrisC
ChrisC
7 years ago

Also, this:

http://cycling.today/pro-team-mechanic-stops-brake-disc-at-full-speed-with-no-injury-to-his-hand-video/

http://www.velonews.com/2017/02/video/video-can-disc-rotors-actually-cut_431182

Sorry to disparage these guys, but Ventoso, Maes, Doull, Hansen and the rest are objectively full of crap…

Allan
Allan
7 years ago
Reply to  ChrisC

Those videos are stupid and expose the lack of basic physics by almost everyone who parrots this line of thinking. Two points:

1) Stopping a spinning disc while the bike is in a stand is NOT THE SAME as that same wheel going down the road with a 7kg bike and 70kg rider’s momentum behind it.

2) Disc injuries occur during a crash because they are HIGH IMPACT events. A body part coming in contact with the edge of a disc rotor at high speed, and with momentum will absolutely cause a cut.

There is just no arguing with the laws of physics.

Allan
Allan
7 years ago
Reply to  Allan

*lack of understanding of basic physics

Alivis
Alivis
7 years ago
Reply to  Allan

Your understanding of 4he physics of a bike crash is severely limited. All moving in same direction relative speeds and impact forces very low.

Allan
Allan
7 years ago
Reply to  Alivis

Haha, are you being serious? So in a crash, the only thing that can cause injuries are the road and barriers? Crashing into other riders can cause no injuries since they are “all moving in the same direction”? Also, you’ve never seen crashes where riders are already on the ground and more riders plow into them? Youtube some bike crash videos, it’ll learn ya. Or, you can believe your bro science in lieu of physics.

Andrew Spaulding
7 years ago
Reply to  Allan

Allan id stop now if I were you. Any more of your clueless attempts at physics will only make you look worse.

Allan
Allan
7 years ago

Enlighten me with your “alternative” version of how physics work, buddy.

Sean
Sean
7 years ago

Road bike racing is an equipment sport…. the equipment supplied to the bike racers is developed by companies that make their living from supplying bikes to people who PAY for them. Why should the manufacturers bother to keep developing race equipment if it has no effect on the products they sell?

ebbe
ebbe
7 years ago
Reply to  Sean

Yep. If I were a big (bike) brand, I’d seriously consider reallocating (a big part of) my marketing dollars/euros to disciplines where my latest innovations / high end products are accepted, rather than rejected. That would be MTB, CX and “gravel/adventure”. Let’s be honest: Only a minutely small percentage of the general public (the public who actually pay for the stuff they ride) needs a hardcore race-oriented road bike anyway. Most consumers are much better off with comfort, wider tires, and braking performance in rain and on bad roads

KC
KC
7 years ago

Out on a limb here guessing that not many of those slamming “whiny pros” have ever been in big packs over 40mph and been in or alongside high speed crashes with ambulances and stretchers and sometimes medivacs. I also don’t think they are good at statistics or have much familiarity with how “awesome” and long-term (sarcasm) pro contracts are.

It’s not the spinning of the disc… it’s adding two metal protrusions into the already dangerous mix of parts in a crash. Picture a 200lb wide receiver running full speed at you with a disc pointed edgewise at you… now double that speed. It doesn’t need to be knife-sharp to do some real damage.

Swap jobs with the guys with concerns and skin in the game and then you have a right to a useful opinion.

Allan
Allan
7 years ago
Reply to  KC

Someone gets it.

Tomi
Tomi
7 years ago
Reply to  KC

Some people in this comment thread have raced pro races in belgium.

David
David
7 years ago
Reply to  KC

Many of us have and we know that the dangers present in the sport extend well beyond the rotor drama. No one cared until Campy looks like it’s not going to keep up with the sport.

OriginalMarkV
OriginalMarkV
7 years ago
Reply to  KC

Yes, agreed. The linebacker with a rotor is a good analogy. It’s the impact, not the spinning.

Dylan
Dylan
7 years ago
Reply to  OriginalMarkV

Unless the linebacker is running in the same direction as you are, no, it’s not a good analogy.
Plenty of crashes happen where the whole pack goes down, but the speed of riders relative to each other is minimal. Crashes where a rider at full speed hits a stationary rider probably happen every now and then, but I can’t remember one off hand. Pack goes down followed by back markers crashing into the pileup are plentiful, but in most cases the inertial mass of the crashed bike is only a fraction of the mass of bike & rider, because even i the rider is still clipped in, the connection is far from rigid and even if it were, the mass couldn’t be approximated as being centred on the point of impact.

Allan
Allan
7 years ago
Reply to  Dylan

So when everyone was arguing the first pro rider who complained about a disc injury actually sustained it from a chainring, how do you explain that? I mean, since “everything is moving in the same direction” none of these bike parts could possibly cause an injury, right?

Tomi
Tomi
7 years ago
Reply to  Allan

I don’t think Ventoso was injured by a crash but most probably by something like a small rock that was sent flying by another wheel. He claimed he didn’t crash and just realize while pedaling that he was bleeding.

Besides I don’t think anybody said you couldn’t be injured by a rotor. I think it is highly unlikely that it does more damage than any other part. The worse thing that can happen when hit by a bicycle is being rolled over and get internal organs damages.

Tomi
Tomi
7 years ago
Reply to  Tomi

or spinal cord injurys when being hit at the back…I don’t think CAP ever asked for spinal protections to be made mandatory.

ebbe
ebbe
7 years ago
Reply to  KC

You’re correct: It’s not about the spinning. However, as many people (internet commenters and pro riders alike) explicitly keep claiming it is (“giant spinning knives, machetes” – as Ventoso said in his letter), it’s only fair to debunk that by making a quick video that proves the spinning isn’t the issue.

Now, about the impact: There are many sharp edges on a bike that can seriously injure a rider on high speed impact. Your analogy nicely explains that adding yet another edge could be dangerous. However, you’re omitting the fact that it’s not only adding edges. It’s removing other edges at the same time: First off, the entire horse shoe construction of the rim brake, which has it’s own dangers, is completely removed. But more importantly: Part of the spokes (which are actually about 30% thinner/sharper than rotors) are covered by the rotor. Some maths to back this up:

The “accessible edge” of a 170mm disc is about 533mm (circumference, one-sided). This disc partially covers 12 sharp “bladed spokes” on the left side of the wheel, at about 75mm covered per spoke = 900mm. Overall DECREASE in sharp spinning edges when using disc brakes: 366mm per wheel, equals 732mm per bike. A DECREASE in accessible sharp edges of almost 3/4 of a meter per bike.

So to fix your analogy: It’s a line backer who used to run with 10 metal discs strapped to his suit, and now runs around with only 8 metal discs strapped to his suit 😉

Jam
Jam
7 years ago

“My shoe’s cut to pieces; that’s definitely brakes that did that,” said Owain Doull in the abu Dubai race.

It was his left shoe that got cut, so how he managed to do that is any ones guess.

Tom
Tom
7 years ago

I suspect the virulent reaction is down to the CPA trying to control one thing that is easily definable. There seems to be good evidence that discs are quite unlikely to cause injury. Having ridden disc and standard, there’s no question discs are better, in all circumstances, than standard.
On the other hand, numerous pros have been killed by errant motorcycles, but that is not a problem so easily solved. commercial interests there are too powerful to overcome.

alvis
alvis
7 years ago

The Pros, under the auspices of their union, the CPA have realised too late they can push for more money to adopt new technology but only if there is some implied risk in so adopting.
The industry, and right thinking consumers wanting the best technology, will drive this. Nobody sees the risk the pros do over and above that associated with all the other rotating parts nobody thinks about. Making up false and obviously BS claims to injuries only makes them look like the worst of footballs divers.

Allan
Allan
7 years ago

I don’t understand the argument people are making. On one hand, all the “right thinking” “smart” consumers are demanding discs, and these silly luddite pro riders could hinder their progression into consumer bikes. But on the other hand, these same consumers are so dumb that all they do is blindly ride what their favorite pro is riding. Because if Peter Sagan is on rim brakes, then I don’t want discs, because I want to be just like Peter!

So which is it? Are the pros holding back progress all these super smart and savvy consumers want, or are consumers blind sheep poseurs who only want what the pros ride?

I really could NOT care less what the pros want to do. If they want downtube shifters and steel bikes, who cares? It’s pretty obvious where the industry is headed, these companies are not going to be making their top of the line bikes in both rim and disc brake models. So, soon enough, we’ll all have less choice, disc or nothing baby! (Or give your business to a smaller company who are willing to give rim brake riders what they want). I really don’t understand why everyone has to have a HOT TAKE on disc brakes.

Tomi
Tomi
7 years ago
Reply to  Allan

People are just reacting over either plain hypocrisy or stupidity. They didn’t wait for the pro to use disc brake. You are overthinking it way too much.

David
David
7 years ago
Reply to  Allan

It’s the first one. The second argument is not very prevalent. I haven’t seen anyone try to argue both of them, so I think you’re making something out of nothing. But, to be fair, they still aren’t mutually exclusive. You have a large portion of the industry as informed consumers and industry insiders who are the ones that will pay attention to these things and call the bullshit when they see it, and then also a separate but still significant portion that just wants to emulate the pros. The informed consumer doesn’t really care about the latter, but is probably annoyed by the pro cycling drama that is unrelenting, and the industry insiders DO care about the latter group because they will still have to sell bikes to them.

This should’t be that hard to understand. <—HOT TAKE!!!

-Rizza
-Rizza
7 years ago

Some of the motor-doping teams would require new wheels if all the pro-tour bikes went disc. Those super-strong magnet wheels aren’t cheap you know.

Gillis
Gillis
7 years ago

The way people talk, you’d think the disc was equivalent to a circular saw blade larger than the wheel.

Al
Al
7 years ago

I don’t care what pro racers use, it doesn’t influence my gear purchasing decisions in the least. I prefer disc brakes on all of my bikes, unless it’s my BMX bike which doesn’t have any brakes

Dylan
Dylan
7 years ago
Reply to  Al

What pros use may not influence your decision on what you choose out of what is available, but if Shimano can’t market it via pro racing, they are much less likely to release it at Dura Ace spec level. Picture trying to buy a hydraulic disc brake equipped road bike 5 years ago… wouldn’t have had much luck there eh?
It finally happened before the UCI agreed to a trial on the road, but not before a number of years of smaller players demonstrating that there was a market beyond CX. Imagine being a Campy fan who likes discs (there must be some out there), it’s sure influencing their purchasing decisions.

Allan
Allan
7 years ago
Reply to  Dylan

b-b-but according to almost everyone in this comment thread, and all “right thinking, smart, savvy” consumers, they are all clamoring for discs. Shimano may have to cave to the whiny professionals, but if consumers are demanding discs, Shimano will make them.

Al Boneta
Al Boneta
7 years ago
Reply to  Dylan

I don’t care what Shimano releases at a Dura-Ace spec level. I’ve never seen a Dura-Ace derailleur make my bike faster. Lighter wheels and tires make a bigger difference in performance than changing my Ultegra shifters to Dura-Ace shifters.
I am over worrying about makes my ego feel better and winning the parking lot d*** measuring contest with a bunch of elitest UCI racing wannabes that I don’t like to be around in the first place. The same people that worry more about having that same razor sharp racing geometry that the pros use, when they are going to spend 99% of their ride going in a straight line.
Having a 50 year old dentist complain that his Cervelo isn’t stiff enough, when his bike wasn’t fitted properly is what is really hurting this industry I’ve spent 25 years working in.

D P
D P
7 years ago

Can we get to the real nitty-gritty here. Who gets dropped on a climb? I know I do!

Why would I want an extra 3 lbs holding me back on a climb. Not to mention the aero drag at certain yaw angles.

This article states 4 pounds goes up Alpe DHuez more than 2 minutes slower at 278w!
http://www.training4cyclists.com/how-much-time-does-extra-weight-cost-on-alpe-dhuez/

2 minutes! And don’t hit me up with “disc descends better”. Proper descending technique is brakes before the corner. Both rim and disc can over stop your road bikes contact patch. If disc descended 2 minutes better we would have noticed that during the trial period.

And don’t hit me up with “just eat a salad!” or “lose 3 lbs”. You can only get to so low a body fat %. Plus I can’t spend weight off of me, but I can my bike.

I’ve been in the industry 17 years now. Built and Ridden almost everything. (including disc road) All I can say is, I’ve never built a $7000 disc road bike to be under 15lbs. I can build a $3500 12lb rim brake road bike. Why give up free time? Free money? It hurts when someone beats you to the top by 2 seconds, not to mention 2 minutes.

Andrew Spaulding
7 years ago
Reply to  D P

Wow, if you’ve gotten a disc bike down to 15lbs, give yourself a pat on the back and be happy about it. that’s well within weight weenie territory for any bike and shouldn’t hinder anybody on the climbs. Just ride your bike and have fun

joe
joe
7 years ago

I’m just posting to stay this conversation is too long. Get discs, geez, progress sucks, get used to it.

Veganpotter
Veganpotter
7 years ago

I’d be happy if they were banned for the ugly factor. They really do look ridiculous on a road bike!!!

smarty
smarty
7 years ago

If they called discs “spoke guards” they would become a safety feature rather than a hazard. Laugh on!

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