engin-cycles-T47-new-threaded-bottom-bracket-standard-2016

The first Engin Cycles frame with the T47 bottom bracket standard.

An idea has been floating around some of the smaller industry players for about a year now. Brands like White Industries, Chris King and Paragon Machine Works were all thinking that people liked threaded bottom brackets, but that frames and cranks had changed so much over the past decade, getting larger diameter tubes that didn’t go as well with the tiny English threaded BB. These ideas progressed in distinct conversations running their own courses until one company contacted another to make a bottom bracket, and then everything really fell into place to (hopefully) replace the pressfit bottom bracket.

The driving force was to take the advantages of a 30mm spindle and modern frames and combine them with the proven durability, quiet performance and lovability of the traditional threaded bottom bracket.

The result is a new standard called T47, for “Threaded 47”. It measures M47x1, meaning a 47mm outside-thread diameter with a 1mm thread pitch (25.4 tpi equivalent). That puts it very close to the 24 tpi (threads per inch) currently used on English threaded bottom brackets, so it’s essentially been proven on bicycles for many, many years. And that slightly finer thread pitch helps to manually hand tap and chase the threads, a handy feature for frame builders.

To work, it needs a 46mm diameter bottom bracket hole on your frame, which happens to be the same exact measurement of a PF30 BB shell. That’s not a coincidence. White Industries pushed hard to make it a universal and backward compatible design.

“You could literally take a metal PF30 frame and tap it, creating a frame for a threaded bottom bracket. Pretty cool, right?” says Drew Guldaliun, owner and builder of Engin Cycles.

enduro-bearings-torqtite-threaded-pressfit-bottom-brackets01

Conversely, any frame built around this new standard can also use existing thread-together aftermarket bottom brackets from Wheels Manufacturing, Praxis and Enduro (shown above).

T47 BB’s will work for both 30mm and 24mm spindles, using just four different cups and six different width shells to cover internal and external setups on virtually any frame.

Alec White, of White Industries, was one of the originators of the idea and told us “this has the potential to become the one single standard for the entire industry. It makes that much sense.”

It’s an open standard, meaning any and all frame and component manufacturers can use it at no charge and without any licensing. For frames, Argonaut Cycles and Engin Cycles helped bring this new standard to market, and both will have bikes ready to roll very soon. White Industries and PMW will have taps available for frame builders to make frames for the new standard, and those parts will be shipping in time for builders to prep NAHBS bikes for February 2016.

Chris King Threadfit 30i T47 threaded bottom bracket 2016

The video above and this image of Chris King’s new ThreadFit 30i BB are showing prototype bits. Production models will use a TorqTite tool to engage notches on the outside of the BB shell, like what’s shown on the Enduro parts earlier in the post.

white-industries-T47-threaded-bottom-bracket02

These are the first production-level T47 bottom bracket bits from White Industries. They say some brands could also end up using the Race Face tool. Regardless of which install tool, the companies that helped make this happen wanted everything to work with existing tools and standards as much as possible, hence the compatibility with existing install equipment.

white-industries-T47-threaded-bottom-bracket03

white-industries-T47-threaded-bottom-bracket01

Everything old is new again. Thank goodness.

Look for hands-on pics of new parts from several of these brands this weekend live from the Philly Bike Expo!

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notRAPHA
notRAPHA
6 years ago

Lets solve the problem with 2 new & different standards!

M.C. Slammer
M.C. Slammer
6 years ago

Here we go again…

J N H
J N H
6 years ago

You know what, that’s a good idea. Good luck to them and I hope to see 47threaded bbs appearing as standard on PF30 pushing brands like Specialized. If they could kill off PF92 while they’re at it that would be awesome too.

Tim
Tim
6 years ago

@notRAPHA- Where does it say there will be two new standards? I don’t see it anywhere; the article clearly states it’s ONE new standard.
If this new standard kills or badly injures all PF bottom brackets, that’s awesome. If it doesn’t, then there’s one more new standard, and not much harm done. People complain a lot about new standards, but some of them are actually good- one of them being Boost, another seeming to be this one. All the reliability of English bottom brackets and all the stiffness and giant bearing size of press-fit ones? Sign me up (after the standard gains traction).

Heffe
Heffe
6 years ago

I love it! This is such great news.

Mr. P
6 years ago

They seem to have done so many right moves with this. But I do have a question, why bearings outside the BB shell? Isn’t that a step removed from stiffness/protection from an in-shell solution? Can anyone enlighten me on this? Appreciated.

I had horrible longevity with external threaded BBs from most manufacturers for years, while my in-shell BBs have been set and forget.

I love the big shell, great for putting stiffness in a frame in the right spot.

P

JBikes
JBikes
6 years ago

The issue is not “press-fit is bad”. The issue is manufacturing tolerances on frame and poor installation of the bearing on press-fit applications.
All threaded BB cups, be they standard English or this T47 have bearings “press-fit” into the cups. The reason why threaded BB cups seem to be better is that the cup tolerances seem easier for the manufacturer to hit (given their cost and QA/QC) and the bearings are factory installed by trained personnel with proper equipment.
Anyway, T47 is welcome in these eyes.

JBikes
JBikes
6 years ago

@ Mr. P – are your external threaded BB frames faced correctly? And are you torqueing the cups to spec? Non-square and flat mating surfaces on your frame, as well as over-torqueing your cups, will distort the cup and increase internal loads on the bearing, resulting in failure.
Or, you just have bad luck…

Elk
Elk
6 years ago

OK, I can be on board with this. The conversion seems simple enough, and starts to move toward a unified standard. I have a few PF30 steel frames, and my biggest question at his point is how much the BB cutting tool will run. Most shops won’t have one any time soon as mass produced PF30 alloy frames are a proportionately smaller segment of the market and this product won’t apply to carbon. Hopefully Park will make an accessory available for the BTS-1.

Mike
Mike
6 years ago

“You could literally take a metal PF30 frame and tap it, creating a frame for a threaded bottom bracket. Pretty cool, right?” says Drew Guldaliun, owner and builder of Engin Cycles.

If I can tap a steel PF30 bottom bracket shell, I’m switching immediately. Please tell me yes… my PF30 Chris King bottom bracket sucks. I need to try the thread-together systems if nothing else.

I will never understand how we got to PF30 instead of a large threaded system in the first place… but I hope PF30 dies in fire.

sillyboi
sillyboi
6 years ago

wake me when Shimano agrees enough to make a BB for this.

sillyboi
sillyboi
6 years ago

hard to say without actually measuring or seeing drawings but on the BB in the pic, looks like a ham fist could crack the stop/face if that outboard OD is same or smaller than the threaded insert. fail of so.

EpicThroatBeard
EpicThroatBeard
6 years ago

YES. it has been 3 months and I hadn’t seen a standard change so i was worried that the industry was slacking. Actually this is good. a 24/30 mm axle compatibility is a go ahead. Larger weld area is always good. bigger bearings is also great.

Bald Ben
Bald Ben
6 years ago

I’m still hanging on to my bikes with a “tiny English threaded BB”, but I would definitely favor adoption of this standard. Companies aren’t going away from giant BBs and I won’t buy a bike with PF, so this would actually make mainstream frames usable to me.

Ryan
Ryan
6 years ago

Engin!

Quixote
Quixote
6 years ago

@Mr.P, Really? In my experience, it’s the internal BBs – like BB30 – that are way more susceptible to the elements than a threaded Shimano BB, for example. ISIS was one internal exception that was very weather-proof, but it had other issues. My Hope threaded BB has so far outlived all other standards on my various bikes not counting replaceable loose-bearing types. BBRight? Nope, BBWrong.

Ernst
Ernst
6 years ago

Universal? Backward compatible? Consumer perspective thinking? Am I dreaming? Bring it on!

Ryan S
Ryan S
6 years ago

The industry should have NEVER left BSA English BB’s in the first place.

Having a 30mm crank spindle over Shimano’s 24mm is hardly an advantage when people just go out and put Speedplay pedals on their cranks, which have pencil size spindles, that create waaaay more flex than any difference between Shimano and competitors’ cranks. It’s oxymoronic.

luddite
luddite
6 years ago

Seems like a move in right direction, I only question this:
“Conversely, any frame built around this new standard can also use existing thread-together aftermarket bottom brackets from Wheels Manufacturing, Praxis and Enduro ”

That seems you could put a thread-together BB into a new T47 threaded shell. That would be a very bad idea as you would be sat on the tips of the threads.

JP
JP
6 years ago

Remember the old raceface threaded bb’s though?? They were terrible! Did not last long at all! I have 5 bikes with pf and don’t have any issues with any of them… so far out perform any threaded bb I have had including the “flash” brands like hope and chris king

J N H
J N H
6 years ago

@Mike, the reason we got to press fit BBs is that they’re $10-15 cheaper per frame when you’re talking big factories in Taiwan. Yes they still have to cut and face the bb shell, but they don’t have to tap it, which lets them take a whole stage out of the manufacturing process. Hopefully if enough people take enough bikes back because of creaking bbs press fits will go away.

BAH
BAH
6 years ago

Once again, the powers-that-be are attempting to answer a question that NOT ONE of my customers has asked. I’m sticking with my old-school threaded BB’s and so are my customers. Don’t shove things down our throats we don’t need. Seriously.

Loki
Loki
6 years ago

@(not)Rapha

Backwards compatible, open standard and source, common tools,complaints from users acted on by industry, will fit multiple current axle widths and standards, still keeps the advantages of bigger bb shell and carbon lay-up et al.
Basically if you put a thread in a current frame they have a BB to fit that. You should be applauding a rational consumer driven solution to a real problem; that is all too rare in the bike industry.
Well done, T47 BB is a great idea.

tP
tP
6 years ago

It will be interesting to see if we’ll be able to get small EBBs with 24mm axles out of this also. If I could swap between a geared setup on a BB centered in the shell and a SS setup on a short-swing EBB setup in the slightly larger (but not full EBB size) shell, that would be pretty cool.

RC Speed
RC Speed
6 years ago

Hmm….Companies already make threaded external BB’s for English threaded 68mm shells to fit 30mm spindles, (Rotor/ FSA/ Race face/ ect) though I understand it is about larger BB and tubing interface is what drives the small builders to this.

That said, For this to work in a carbon frame the manufacturer has to bond alloy/or steel threaded inserts (or shell)…which adds to more problems down the line vs. eliminating them. (The point was eliminating creaking right?…time bomb clock ticking in background)

So for the small Steel Ti builder who has issues keeping tolerances..this could work better and be easier than a PF30 if they want to use the larger BB interface..but it is creating a “Threaded” solution for the typical carbon frame and possibly creating more problems.
Since King and other Niche builders are behind it, there will be a following…but for the larger companies who make bikes to scale….One action always affects another.

anonymous
anonymous
6 years ago

I do not understand this at all. The only possible way I’d buy a frame with 47×1 is if it came with threaded adapter cups for some other standard like the current PF30 to English adapter cups.

The point of BB30 and PF30 is the bearings are INSIDE the bottom bracket shell. This shows external bearings. Then what’s the point? FSA 386 bottom brackets and ROTOR 30mm already make 30mm spindle bottom brackets for English threaded frames. You don’t need 47×1 for 30mm spindles.

The only point to a 47×1 shell is for extra extra large downtubes with a threaded interface. This is the only point. Extra large diameter tubes on steel frame bikes. For any frame using normal, oversize, double oversize tubes, there’s really no disadvantage to using a standard English BB.

I hope this fails.

Matt
Matt
6 years ago

Am I the only one that hasn’t had a single issue with my BB92? Seriously, 0 issues in 2+ years of riding year round in the NE. Plus it allowed my 29er to have super short chainstays which I looooooove!

Ryan
Ryan
6 years ago

I like the idea here. Would it be hard to tap a CAAD 10 frame for this?

Wiz240
Wiz240
6 years ago

This is the greatest idea I have heard of in a long time.

I can see a threaded eccentric bb coming out of this.

DOWN WITH PRESS FIT!

Craig
Craig
6 years ago

This seems like a good idea to me. All going well (and I know this won’t happen) we would settle down with the original BSA/English threaded shell and this new oversize threaded shell. Nice and simple. I’ll put up a months worth of my wages to bet this won’t happen. Some clown will find a way to come up with another version of this new standard. It’s madness how so many frame brands come up with their own versions of stuff simply to try and create a marketing edge over the competition. In the end the unknowing consumer loses out.

So, great job White Industries, Chris King and Paragon Machine Works!

anonymous
anonymous
6 years ago

Also this isn’t going to stop them from putting PF30 on carbon frames because threading carbon. In the end this is just another standard.

And they already make eccentric PF30s. In fact, it’s easier to have an eccentric PF30 because there is no threading. I can’t see what possible advantage making a threaded to smooth adapter cup so an eccentric BB can infinitely adjust has over the shell being smooth in the first place.

wzrd
wzrd
6 years ago

i have a custom steel frame with pf30, as soon as the tap for this is available i will be making the switch.

dork
dork
6 years ago

New tech is fun and I like the idea of standards that make more sense than the current options, and this seems to do that. Naturally it would be upsetting to any consumer or otherwise-invested manufacturer, but I would posit that those feelings are left by the wayside once an industry has moved to a smarter place.
I haven’t had issues with my PF30, it creaked for half of one cold ride, but I quickly found that riding it, instead of freaking out about sounds, made the noise disappear in short order. This new standard sounds amazing even without PF30 qualms – If indeed it is possible to thread existing metal PF30 shells, and go back to PF30 after having threaded a shell, then I don’t see any issues. It’s truly an opt-in or opt-out standard, with the focus on compatibility for the masses. Sweet.

Greg
Greg
6 years ago

I never said hello

anonymous
anonymous
6 years ago

@dork
You need special PF30 BBs to use it as a PF30 shell (and for a BB30 crank apparently), not standard PF30 cups.

notRAPHA
notRAPHA
6 years ago

Sorry Bros, saw the article about the CK bb on The Radavist, and then came over here and thought White Industries release yet another version. I stand corrected. please use your frustration toward multiple KOMs on tonights ride

Scott V.
Scott V.
6 years ago

I agree with @RC Speed I like this idea on something like a Ti or aluminum frame (with big tubes, I never understood PF30 on skinny tube steel bikes) but I remember when carbon frames did have metal BB shells bonded to them, about 6+ years ago. It was one the point of failure on any warranty. Saw it a lot of Cervelos especially, among others. I’ve never been big on bonding materials especially on high stress areas.

Joe
Joe
6 years ago

On my one bike that has a press fit BB I have had 3 BBs over the course of about 3000 miles. I can’t even begin to count the number of customers bikes I’ve had with the same issue. I’ve had the same outboard bearing on a bike for 5 years and close to 5k. I’m pretty excited about this, even though it is a new standard and we have way to many of those.

Matt
Matt
6 years ago

“Threaded metal sleeves in carbon frames are awful!”

-said no Santa Cruz owner ever.

Seriously guys, no reason to think carbon frame manufacturers couldn’t do this.

Walt
6 years ago

Fantastic stuff. This reminds me of Sean Chaney’s (Vertigo) creation of the 44mm ID head tube/headset standard about 5 years ago. I bet we’ll see a LOT of these.

Great work, Drew.

anonymous
anonymous
6 years ago

@Matt
There’s no almost reason for carbon frame makers to use 47×1 over BSA metal sleeves. The main “tubes” are not directly mitered to the bottom bracket shell. The BB interface does not have to the as large as, and virtually never is, as large as the monocoque BB structure. As explained before, the bearings are external, so there’s no reason the shell needs to be large enough to house internal bearings. 30mm axles with external cups can be handled by BSA. One of the big reasons to use PF30 in the first place is not needing a metal shell.

So there is every reason to believe carbon frame manufacturers won’t use 47×1. 47×1 solves a single problem. Needing a large downtube-BB interface on welded (metal) frames and having threads.

That’s it.

Duster13
Duster13
6 years ago
Reply to  anonymous

Call me crazy, but I’ll trust the judgement and expertise of owner and head of Argonaut a whole lot more regarding the worth of this standard versus some anonymous mouth on the internet like you. 🙂

Michael
Michael
6 years ago

As far as durability goes it is more about what brand of BB you are using then whether it is PF or external.
And it has been my experience as a mechanic that the external threaded BBs are the biggest culprits of creaking and have more flex.
Whereas the PF BB don’t creak (if installed correctly) and the internal bearing are much stiffer.
If you don’t want your PF BB to creak install it with grease NOT threadlock.
You wouldn’t install your headset with threadlock, so why would you install your PF BB with threadlock.
The argument is that threadlock keeps the BB in; but when have you ever heard of a headset slipping out when the fork is intalled.
Just like the fork and stem would keep the headset from ever coming out; the cranks would keep the PF BB from slipping out.
USE GREASE IF YOU DON’T WANT YOUR PRESS-FIT BB TO CREAK.

Ripnshread
Ripnshread
6 years ago

Sweeeeeeet. Finally back to threads. Thank your god.

anonymous
anonymous
6 years ago

@Walt
Cane Creek was making zerostack headsets over 10 years ago.

flybywire99
flybywire99
6 years ago

Thanks god there’s a new BB size. The .0001 percent technical advantage that this new technology will give me should guarantee that I win all the bike races and events I enter. It will also be a fantastic way for our local bike shops to spend all that excess cash that they always have sitting around in their bank accounts – to stock the 12 new bottom brackets that all the customers will want to purchase.

ceeeeeho
ceeeeeho
6 years ago

And when is White Industries releasing a modern spindle cranks!???? I love them, but they are not the best company in terms of buisiness. Contributing for the industry and us customers, but not anything to show yet! Love to see your new ones, and I am buying!

David Lewis
David Lewis
6 years ago

Two things should be noted that seem to be missed in a lot of the comments. The first is that this standard was invented by the head of Argonaut, a carbon frame manufacturer who clearly doesn’t think the shell will be a problem. The second is that this statement is earlier in the article: “T47 BB’s will work for both 30mm and 24mm spindles, using just four different cups and six different width shells to cover _internal_ and external setups on virtually any frame.” (Emphasis mine.) So some manufacturers, like Argonaut from the pictures in the video, will indeed be using this as an internal system.

anonymous
anonymous
6 years ago

@David Lewis
Apparently you’re right, I’m not sure if it was there earlier, or the fact that they mentioned the threaded PF30 BBs and showed an external cup BB, but it’s becoming more of a moot point as most crank manufacturers are moving away from BB30 specific cranks.

On a carbon frame, 47×1 metal inserts would only really offer legacy support for older narrow axle BB30. FSA is moving towards their 386EVO 30mm axle standard, SRAM is making BBright compatible cranks which I can only assume means it should work with BSA 30mm cups, Rotor also uses a long 30mm axle for external cups, Campagnolo did make a BB30 crank but it is compatible with BB86 so it would be compatible with a BSA shell given the right BB, Shimano doesn’t make BB30 at all, Cannondale doesn’t think there’s anything wrong with BB30/PF30, since they started them.

thesteve4761
thesteve4761
6 years ago

“And that slightly finer thread pitch to manually hand tape and chase the threads, a handy feature for frame builders.”

Forget to edit before posting?

Padrote
Padrote
6 years ago

headsets should go to threaded. pressfit doesnt seem to be working there.