New Carbon Clincher Wheels from Lightweight Can Take the Heat

“By using such exclusive and unknown carbon fibre materials – at least for the rest of the bike business”

It doesn’t say anywhere that NASA or Indycar racing doesn’t know about this technology, only the bicycle industry.

This great and all but with in three years disc brakes will be mainstream and these wheels will be old news

The new Dallara DW12 2012 Indycar runs Brembo carbon-carbon rotors, carbon pads, and a 6-piston aluminum caliper.

Lightweight is so full of s**t it’s coming out of their molds when they lay up their wheels. Exclusive my a**. Nothing is exclusive to them only. ENVE has been breaking the mold for years, making wheels out of expensive carbon (that’s what it really comes down to) instead of the wet lay up 3k weave stuff Lightweight was using then (and still not far from now).

And if they actually had real technology to back up these claims (ENVE and Zipp are the only two who’ve invested in technology to test brake track heat…..I hear Paul Lew though is using his hair dryer, but that doesn’t count), there would be info that these test machines create…..vs BS statements like “unavailable carbon”.

Disc brake comment peeps-Discs will indeed find their way into cross bikes more, and on enthusiasts bikes like one’s Vogali offers. But for racing types…..hyrdaulic rim brakes are the future (SRAM and Magura) because they provide the braking power at a reduced weight and increase advantage in aerodynamics (magura model for sure, SRAM…unknown). Steve Hed proved a bit back in the wind tunnel that discs are not advantageous for real road racing. These tests we’re done BTW at the insistence of a mr lance armsrtong who was curious.

Let’s not keep forget Bikerumor’s own very very well done article few weeks back with the top guys from each disc brake company in the industry, creme de la creme, who say just say no to discs on the road for other reasons.

Savo – Have you ever visited their factory ? I take it you are aware that Lightweight/Carbonsports also make carbon fibre satellites (aka spaceships) , built to manufacturing tolerances of less than 5 microns , worth millions of dollars ? Do a quick search on this, or just drop them an email and they’ll happy to fill you in on the details. CarbonSports/Lightweight are one of the world’s most experienced carbon fabrication companies in the world, making carbon fibre components for aviation, agriculture and aerospace applications at their factory in Friedrichashafen, Germany.

Just sayin’.

Regards,

Chris @ Lightweight

@just a guy- you are right, a lot of the technology has not progressed more than better molding systems and better design. I am not aware of any other industry that would use such a specific application for heat resistant resin aside from exterior components on nasa spacecraft.

@mit, why would nascar use carbon brake rotors. The primary reason for carbon/ceramic rotors is heat dissipation. Have you ever watched a nascar race? The guy braking is not the one winning, plus they drive so close to each other that no matter how nice the brakes are they would never prevent crashes. Formula 1 needs such rotors because there is much more hard braking on the courses that necessitates it. Plus, a typical nascar car lasts 2-4 races till it is damaged so why waste the money on rotors that shatter and can’t be reused.

@Gillis- why would Boeing ever develop carbon layups or resins that would apply here. Name me one industry that has a comparable use for a resin that needs to resist heat buildup from cork brake pads? Don’t say carbon discs on formula one because their is a simple reason that that technology has not been used in bicycle wheels. It is the ceramic not the carbon in those rotors that makes the difference in braking. Last I checked I don’t think anyone has made a ceramic that handles impacts well. Those brake rotors hide behind wheels, our braking surface gets to experience pinch flats, potholes, road seams, etc….

@sevo- I hate to admit it but I agree. I have a new disc cross bike. It is awesome, but I don’t think that it has benefits on the road. I read the same article, the one thing everyone seemed vague on was the issue of weight. A set of red calipers weighs less than 300 grams, that is one top of the line hydraulic brake. Also, rims will get lighter but the hubs are heavier, and you use more spokes (kiss 10, 12, 16, or even 20 spoke wheels goodbye) , more weight, less aero. Also, hubs weigh more, and frame will add weight to reinforce the dropouts for discs. It is not as simple as “oh man, discs will get so much better because road bikes need them”. Have you tried the new xtr, it doesn’t get much better than that, or lighter.

@craigsj- of course everyone agreed that discs are the future- more wheels to sell, more hype, and less lawsuits from exploding rims that were rushed to market.

Something not used in the industry? Hmm, prob something like basalt fibre as it is good with heat and it drapes nicely.

high temp composites are used in tons of aero space applications. a lot of them just aren’t carbon fiber. carbon-carbon can withstand re-entry temps.

@lukee- I did not say that “everyone agreed that discs are the future”. I know you just needed that intro to replay the tired conspiracy theory about the industry ripping us off.

Sevo said the industry’s “creme de la creme” “just say no to discs on the road”. That is an absurd misrepresentation of the article. There was only one who held that opinion and all he kept hammering on was aerodynamics. Thing is, road racing isn’t principally about aerodynamics.

The hardcore and the Lew’s of the world don’t need to be convinced. Technologies expand on their merits, and as they do they evolve to address the needs of new applications. How long has aerodynamics in disc brakes been an issue? Never. That can change.

@harro- yes they are but they are used for components that don’t experience the stresses of a wheel. Someone mentioned basalt. It’s awesome, way better heat resistance than carbon, but not as light and about half as strong as carbon- so it makes heavier wheels

@CRAIGSJ- I don’t believe that it is a conspiracy- it’s just good business, they exist to sell stuff and make money by making us buy new stuff- that’s just life in a consumer society. It seems that disc brakes on road bikes are kinda overkill. Road tires are to narrow, properly setup caliper brakes lock wheels out, power is not the issue. Modulation may be the best way to approach it but caliper brakes work well. I still have a mountain bike magazine from 2001 that lauded the merits of disc brakes and said wheels were going to get much lighter, and way fewer spokes. Here we are in 2012 and guess what, most disc wheels are 28 hole or 32 hole. Barely anyone makes a 24 hole disc wheel, the ones that exist aren’t any lighter. Aero is tough, take a look a WISIL recumbents, several builders have done both caliper and disc. It seems the fastest designs stay with calipers (faired or unfaired). Those freds are are pretty an@l but they do embrace technology way faster than roadies. Before you laugh that they don’t “design” their equipment talk to one, you will regret it.

Will discs be on road bike in three years-YES. Will they be lighter than the pinnacle of caliper brakes- NO. More aero- better BUT not by much. better braking- YES, but with a cost. That’s the issue, I think volagi style bikes will be everywhere which is good for most riders, but to say that 9 pound wonder rig disc bikes will everywhere is a pipe dream. I expect most 13 pound bikes will gain a lb, moving to disc. That’s real world thinking.

oh- Paul Lew can be difficult to deal with but the guy has been building carbon wheels before anyone else. Just because he uses a hair dryer doesn’t mean he’s clueless. I have a friend at a major company(top 6 wheel brands) that says their final test for wheel strength is letting the biggest guy in the office ram curbs with under inflated tires. Wow, is that sophisticated. Guess what, it works and I am cool with that.

lukee: take a chill pill bro

I used to work on a carbon/carbon brake disks.
They were used in US military planes. French made. (same supplier as F1, since 1976 !!!)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinforced_carbon%E2%80%93carbon

Theses are very expansive because they need a lot of heat to melt the carbon matrix.
Theses will never work as a material for a disk on a bike, because they need to be heat up to gain friction.
May be it could work as a rim. Very expensive.

@jesus cristo

enve xc —28 or 32 holes http://www.enve.com/wheels/mtb/twenty6XC.aspx
easton haven—- 24 hole- http://www.eastoncycling.com/en-us/mountain/products/wheels/all-mountain/haven-carbon-26

sram r60—24 hole http://www.sram.com/sram/mountain/products/rise-60-26#/path/term-id/493

I still don’t see any wheel like the above reviewed lightweights—–those have 16 and 20 spokes.

Anyone here can remember wheels like a chris king/mavic 517 wheelset weighing in at 1435g
(still have a set on a merlin newsboy). My coworker had a pair of bontrager xlite mtn vbrake wheels that weighed in at 1285g with 24 spokes. The issue here is not DURABILITY BUT ADDED WEIGHT AND COMPLEXITY. Here is a simple example, almost every high end road wheelset on the market features radial laced front wheel and radial drive or non drive rear. That can’t exist in a disc wheel (name one). So there is at least 20-30 grams added weight in spokes in addition to worse aerodynamics compared to a radial laced caliper wheelset. That is the point of the discussion, nothing was ever mentioned about durability.

I own a Cervelo P4 with Zipp 808 Firecrest carbon clincher rims and Zipp cork break pads. I also own a Specialized SL2 with Zipp 404 aluminium braking surface clincher rims.

The Zipp 404 with Dura Ace brake pads is excellent. I love them. Braking is so consistent and powerful that I can get both wheels to slide under full braking.

The Zipp 808 firecrest however with the Zipp cork pads are insane. I can’t get a comparable stopping power in the dry. Riding down a mountain you start to pray to make it safely down. I literally had fears while braking for the first time in my life. And guess what… Zipp is big about heat testing and brags about their braking performance. Lightweight have been the worst in a test 1-2 years back. The braking surface delaminated basicly. When wet the braking way was about 3 times of an ordinary aluminum rim.

You really have to test it for yourself to actually believe that a company could sell such garbage to customers. I will try the yellow Swissstop brake pads this year. Hopefully thats better than the original Zipp cork pads !!!

@lukee —

I think some of your information is out of date, since Tim Johnson ran Zipp 303s laced to White Industries disc hubs during the most recent CX season. Granted, that’s not full-on road use and they are not factory built wheels, but I am sure they would not want a professional rider on their product (with full decals still on them) if they were all that concerned.

And from what I can tell, the Reynolds Assault CX wheels use the same old Assault 46mm rim. Maybe they *are* doing a different layup, but my impression is that the extra weight is all from the hub+rotor and extra spokes.

@lukee

easy to get 24 holes light hubs 😉

http://mackhubs.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=22&Itemid=25&lang=en