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Lance Armstrong explains his career & doping to Freakanomics

lance armstrong interviewed on freakanomics podcast about doping and the tour de france
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In a special Freakonomics Radio episode previewing the show’s Sports series this fall, Stephen Dubner sat down with Lance Armstrong for a career-spanning interview covering his career, his mistakes, and the problems he sees in professional cycling today.

This interview was conducted as part of an upcoming Freakonomics Radio series that will explore the hidden side of sports. It will include interviews with athletes, coaches, owners, agents, academics, and historians, including:

  • Simone Manuel, Olympic gold medalist in swimming
  • Mark Cuban, Dallas Mavericks owner
  • Brandon McCarthy, Atlanta Braves pitcher
  • DeMaurice Smith, head of the NFL Players Union
  • Richard Thaler, Nobel Prize-winning economist
  • The CEO, GM, head coach, and many players on the San Francisco 49ers, who try to turn their roller-coaster 2017 season into a championship.
  • and more…

The series will begin running in early September. Below are a few select quotes from the episode, provided by their PR rep.

Check out the episode here, or find it on your favorite player. While you’re searching around, be sure to check out Bikerumor.com founder Tyler Benedict’s podcast, The Build Cycle, too!

lance armstrong interview on freakanomics podcast

Select Quotes from the Lance Armstrong Interview:

Whether current Tour De France riders are doping (and whether himself held to a double standard):
I don’t know if doping is or is not involved. The situation with Chris Froome involved his asthma inhaler. I mean this is a far cry from a gallon of EPO. This is very very different. So, nonetheless, it was twice the allowed limit which got him in the hot water. And look, Chris Froome has won four Tours. He’s trying to win a fifth. The rider that I kept referring to there, Yoann Offredo, he hasn’t won his neighborhood criterium. So, it’s obvious, we all know that the biggest, as I said in that clip, the tallest trees catch the wind.
I try not to, and it may come off like I am, but I try not to relate these things to me. You know, half of — not half, but a huge chunk of my competitors are driving team cars, and working for sponsors, and working for the organizer of the Tour de France. But none of them won seven Tours… And so I do get frustrated with that.
But let’s just get straight to the point here of what is wrong with the system, and if the aim in 2012 was to finally fix the system they didn’t, they absolutely didn’t.

The recent interaction that made him finally confront what he had done:
I had a longtime employee at Livestrong finally reach out to me after, oddly enough, she rode the whole wave of this thing and then absolutely hated my guts. Somebody came to her and said “Let’s listen to his podcast. I don’t know. This guy sounds a little different.” And so she listened to a couple and she started to come around and then she reached out and she said, “Can we go have coffee?” and I said “Absolutely.” I asked her about the process of what was happening at Livestrong while all the accusations were there and there was a lot of smoke – and then eventually there was fire. She walked me through the whole thing, and she said, “You know, at the end of the day we all felt really complicit.”
It changed my life.

Look, “betrayal” is a terrible word… Complicit is 100 x. And, for me, I had already started to get my mind and my heart around the fact that people had suffered this tremendous amount of betrayal, and then I was hit with complicit. And it just — it rocked me to the core. But it was, I tell you, it was the greatest. It was the greatest, Her name is Melissa, is the greatest gift that anybody has given me the last six years.

His frustrations watching fellow doper Alex Rodriguez enjoy a comeback:
I woke up one day, and – I was in Austin alone and I woke up. And it was on my mind. And I went crazy. I was literally running around the house. And I said “OK, I’m going to ask five of the smartest people I know what they think the difference is between Alex Rodriguez and myself.” And the answers were pretty consistent. The one key thing is that Alex Rodriguez was allowed to come back and play. And Alex Rodriguez was part of a team sport. And thirdly, Alex Rodriguez never stood for anything else other than baseball.

The fans who will never forgive him:
Nobody wants to hear that that a certain segment of any population is pissed at them or hates them or whatever. And for a long, long time that really, really affected me and bothered me. And I just want to be honest with you and the listeners. I understand. How could you not be?

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Matt
Matt
5 years ago

While I hate doping and what it has done to our sport, I can forgive Lance for his doping. I can also forgive him for how bad he was to a lot of people during those days. I think most people can forgive. But I still don’t see in him real humility or a humble nature that you would expect from someone truly sorry and from someone that wanted to change from the way he was.

JBikes
JBikes
5 years ago
Reply to  Matt

I agree, although I think it can be hard to see true humility and remorse through media. Some people can really act the part and not be remorseful, while others are and don’t come off that way on camera or in interviews (which can be edited in ways that are hard to imagine).

That said, I think Lance needs to be more openly apologetic of how his actions hurt clean cyclists and how his personal actions ruined others lives. I think most think of his comparison to other dopers and respective treatment if off-putting and he should stop, take responsibility for what HE did.

I honestly believe Lance was fundamental to US cycling adoption and have deep respect for him as an athlete. My fear is road cycling fades in the US even more than it already has because of the continued bad taste. He has the ability to correct that (and people also need to forgive)

Matt
Matt
5 years ago
Reply to  JBikes

+1

Gillis
Gillis
5 years ago
Reply to  JBikes

I would check out his episode of the Joe Rogan podcase (JRE). It’s one of his more sincere public appearances. There was another podcast around the same time that I don’t recall right now that also turned the tide for me on my opinion of him.

Jason Etter
Jason Etter
5 years ago
Reply to  Gillis

+1

Jason Etter
Jason Etter
5 years ago
Reply to  Matt

Lance doesn’t need to apologize to anyone. The governing body(s) of cycling are what gave cycling a black eye. It’s their system that allowed for and rewarded doping. If Lance was the only person doping, sure. He owes. But he was one of what? Everyone? Or at least everyone fat? What was his choice? Go clean and not run at the front? Or dope. What choice is that. Champions will be champions in whatever framework you give them to work with. He did nothing but work the system. Which is what any top shelf athlete has to do.

JBikes
JBikes
5 years ago
Reply to  Jason Etter

Nobody forces one to dope or cheat.

I am positive there were gifted cyclists that chose the higher road and had to drop cycling as a profession either directly due to inability to compete or indirectly due to them butting against team and team mgmt culture. These are the people LA hurt, and one reason why doping is so wrong.

The system only exists because the majority did not take a stand and they let this be the norm.

“What choice is that.” It’s the choice of integrity. The choice of having a spine.
Real champions will stand up against unfair practices, against cheating, even if they ultimate go unknown to people other than themselves. I can forgive LA and respect him as a great athlete and I honestly wish him happiness/success. I would never outright disregard him. But, I am not sure I’ll ever view him as anything close to a champion.

JBikes
JBikes
5 years ago
Reply to  JBikes

I will add…I am not sure I’ll ever view him as anything close to a champion within his cycling career. That doesn’t remove my thought that he is an incredibly gifted athlete and his efforts for cancer research and patient support (as mentioned below) should be remember and emulated.

Jason Etter
Jason Etter
5 years ago
Reply to  JBikes

What sport have you been highly successful at? I’m guessing none (not a knock, most people aren’t by definition). You clearly don’t have the perspective of a champion. But you comment as if your point of view is relevant. It’s not. You have the point of view of a journeyman at best, more likely a fan. I’m not saying thinking like a champion is a plus, good for society, etc. It is just what it is. They’re not normal. They don’t do anything the same way you do.

JBikes
JBikes
5 years ago
Reply to  Jason Etter

What is a champion? Are you suggesting they will all go as far as cheating if given the chance or need?

I am positive that all top level athletes will go way, way, way beyond what I am willing to endure even if I was naturally gifted. But I do not believe it is common that they all cheat or will stoop to that level. If they do, they aren’t a champion in my eye regardless of what their talent is.

As for relevance,
Does one need to be a trader to comment on one that commits insider trading?
A corporate board member to get the perspective of Skilling or Lay’s crimes (Enron)?
A chemicals executive to understand the gross negligence that leads to human disasters such as Bhopal?

The answer is no, unless you just have no moral compass.

And for the record, LA and the examples above all have one thing in common. They put their desires above others no matter the cost. They justify it in some way. Yes the consequences are vastly different but the mental decisions and justification by all tend to be very similar.

Jason Etter
Jason Etter
5 years ago
Reply to  JBikes

“What is a champion? Are you suggesting they will all go as far as cheating if given the chance or need?”

This is where you differ in thinking than a champion. In this specific case where the drug testing protocols aren’t effective and everyone competitive is doping the champions don’t view it as cheating. They’re simply playing by the rules, written and unwritten to the best of their ability. Yes, they will do whatever it takes.

I can’t find a link but remember that poll of Olympic competitors that asked them would they use PED’s to win gold if it meant that it would knock I think it was 15yrs off their lifespan? Something like 90% said yes. They clearly don’t think like most people.

JBikes
JBikes
5 years ago
Reply to  Jason Etter

You are missing the point.

I understand most high level athletes can hold a disposition that will lend them to cheating, because of their inordinate desire and drive to win at all costs.

However, the one that do are not champion in my eyes.

In this specific case, I don’t care how they justified it, it was wrong , it hurt others and they will always be held lower in my view.

You are conflating what many “champions” are willing to do as being a trait of champion, versus the definition I (and most others) hold of a champion…which involves the drive as well as a level of integrity, honestly and fairness.

Jason Etter
Jason Etter
5 years ago
Reply to  JBikes

You crack me up!

“I understand most high level athletes can hold a disposition that will lend them to cheating, because of their inordinate desire and drive to win at all costs.”

It doesn’t matter how you define them. You can call them turtle goats for all that it matters. The fact is, they ARE the champions.

Jason Etter
Jason Etter
5 years ago
Reply to  Jason Etter

I don’t share your moral convictions. But I can appreciate them. You’re a better man than I.

Ol' Shel'
Ol' Shel'
5 years ago
Reply to  Matt

Unless taught to be remorseful at a young age, most people won’t do a good job at it. Most men suck at it, and given Armstrong’s rough (if I recall correctly) upbringing, he’s not likely to be really good at expressing vulnerability.

I’m more interested in his actions, and I think he’s done a lot to apologize.

Plus, he owes us nothing. We’re absolute fools for idolizing any sports star.

tom
tom
5 years ago

I raced a little against him a long time ago, and it was clear then he was an exceptional racer. However, I wasn’t a groupie in any respect. And into his tour winning days, I strongly suspected he was doping. Now that it’s all out in the open, I’m not sure what people expect from the guy. He’s made his amends and fallen on his sword. he remains a unsentimental and energetic guy who has legitimate questions over how the world works. You don’t have to like/love the guy, but you may as well enjoy whatever insights he can raise in his explorations.

Technician
Technician
5 years ago
Reply to  tom

While I’m all for freedom of speech, this particular guy must have been banned from speaking up FFS. No one is interested in his so called “professional insights” on state of things in cycling.

Gillis
Gillis
5 years ago
Reply to  Technician

“No one is interested in his so called “professional insights” on state of things in cycling.”

The popularity of his Stages/The Move podcast proves you wrong on that count.

Akrupper
Akrupper
5 years ago

I have no interest in what this guy has to say and I will not support him by clicking on things that involve him. I will not lend him credibility by supporting him. For so many ethical reasons, this website should also refrain from promoting and supporting him. He has proven to be a malevolent sociopath. Enough is enough. There are other experts out there who can also credibly explain the same things who haven’t deliberately sought to destroy people’s lives.

Jason Etter
Jason Etter
5 years ago
Reply to  Akrupper

I’ve been around many sorts of racing, motor-sports and non motor-sports, at the national and world levels for over 30years. Do you know what most top shelf competitors all have in common? .They all trend toward sociopath. The same goes for people successful in big business. You’re going to need to add a lot more people to your “hate” list.

Robert D. Hare
Robert D. Hare
5 years ago
Reply to  Jason Etter

Armstrong is a sociopath, sure. But Greg LeMond isn’t. Neither is Miguel Indurain. I raced against George Hincapie as a junior, and he’s no sociopath either. Eric Heiden won every single men’s speedskating event in the 1980 Olympics. He rode the Tour for 7-Eleven and then became an orthopedic surgeon. Heiden isn’t a sociopath; by all accounts he’s a pretty fantastic human being.

I mean, you’re not wrong that sociopaths are overrepresented at the top levels of sports and business, but don’t give Armstrong a pass because of that. A lot of elite athletes may be jerks, but Armstrong is an extraordinarily bad guy. He’s not contrite; he’s miming contrition because he knows others expect it. This is what sociopaths *do*.

I happened to watch Armstrong’s Oprah interview with a non-cyclist friend who has a Ph.D. in clinical psychology. It took only three minutes for her to blurt out, “he’s obviously a sociopath.” That’s not a rigorous diagnosis, but you don’t need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

Patrick
Patrick
5 years ago
Reply to  Robert D. Hare

The props that I have to give you for the Dylan quote I’ll have to remove for repeating hearsay and armchair psychology.

I sat with Lance in my classroom for over 3 hours while he visited with one of my students who was going through cancer treatment. Lance was incredibly gracious, kind, polite, and respectful of our school community. He managed to come up from Aspen to visit with her, and then he stuck around and met parents and families afterwards. Not one handshake, pat on the back, or hug was refused. His visit, along with that of Scott Mercier, meant the world both to my student, myself, and the faculty and families of our school. I think I can speak on their behalf when I say he was a hero that day.

I’m not a psychologist, a psychiatrist, or trained in any of the above. My total experience with mental health revolves around having read some Freud and Jung as an undergrad. Lance appeared to me to be totally healthy and his showing up at our school. Whether he gets forgiveness (or whatever people visiting BikeRumor.com think he’s asking for) is, for me, beside the point. His issues are now between him and his maker–and maybe not even that. For us, he is a hero with a few flaws that came close to tragic but from which he appears to have recoveredd nicely.

Jason Etter
Jason Etter
5 years ago
Reply to  Robert D. Hare

You guys clearly don’t know much about sociopaths. First an foremost they don’t generally stand out. They spend their entire lives “fitting in”. So assuming that a layman can just pick them out based on a few acts is absurd. Sociopaths do all sorts of nice things, act gracious, help people, etc. It’s a means to and end. A lot more of the population is sociopathic or borderline sociopathic than you would be comfortable with. I’m a borderline sociopath. I’ve known a known a few highly intelligent full blown sociopaths. You wouldn’t know it from talking or interacting with any of us.

Robin
Robin
5 years ago
Reply to  Jason Etter

Citation needed for BS claim.

Jeff G
Jeff G
5 years ago
Reply to  Akrupper

This is a actually a very interesting and informative interview from someone with a unique perspective on Pro Tour level racing. I’m glad Lance has broken the omertà and can speak with candid opinion.
To believe the “doping era” started and ended with Lance is utterly niave. Those who are still upset with what Lance did are really just upset with themselves for not realizing what was happening when it was happening.
The UCI and Tour Organizers are the real culprits for creating a system that encourages performance enhancing while also turning a blind eye to positive test results.

Jason Etter
Jason Etter
5 years ago
Reply to  Jeff G

+1

Technician
5 years ago
Reply to  Jeff G

You are missing the point. People don’t hate L.A. because of doping. They hate him for being egoistical bully who tried to ruin other people’s lives.

Jason Etter
Jason Etter
5 years ago
Reply to  Technician

I can’t understand how someone could hate someone else (or want to) that really has no impact on their life. And for such a long period of time. Why allow yourself to be filled by negative emotions over something/someone that doesn’t matter to their life? Yeah, LA was a prick. No doubt. But no one here can say they wouldn’t have become a prick in the same situation. You can pretend that you know you wouldn’t, but you don’t know. Walk a mile in a mans shoes and all of that. And from what I have seen of him lately he certainly regrets a lot. People screw up, people get in bad states, people make mistakes and sometimes people realize those mistakes and then become wiser and make adjustments. No one here is a saint. No one here has never screwed up. No one here has never made a bad choice. And no one here has had the opportunity to make bad choices on a LA scale. I’m not saying not to dislike the stuff he has done. But I think you need to question do you dislike him because of what he has done, or who he is as a person. What he did may or may not be a representation of who he is as a whole. Or maybe simply forgive. Not for him, but for you. Holding on to hate is nothing but poisoning yourself.

Gillis
Gillis
5 years ago
Reply to  Jason Etter

“Holding on to hate is nothing but poisoning yourself.”

This.

Technician
5 years ago
Reply to  Akrupper

You, sir, gained my utter respect. Glad someone feels the same about him-who’s-name-not-to-be-called.

Kovas
Kovas
5 years ago
Reply to  Akrupper

Akrupper said it best. +1

I didn’t even bother with the article – just jumped to the comments to see where people stand on this cheater… Such a shame that our society no longer has, well, shame.

Jason Etter
Jason Etter
5 years ago
Reply to  Kovas

Holy smokes man, he didn’t murder a daycare full of babies. Yeah, he should be ashamed. And people should judge him for what he has done. But the level of hate I see toward him isn’t proportional. So the guy did PED’s, so did everyone else. So the guy was a prick. Lot’s of people are pricks. And some of those pricks figure it out and change. Is there any point of forgiveness? Or is screwing up a life sentence. Do you hold yourself to the same standards?

Tucker
Tucker
5 years ago

I’m interested in knowing… how many of the “willing to forgive” and “he played the system” comments above are from residents of the USA?

I’m not “anti-USA”, but more interested in what I see as US cyclists being more willing to excuse what Lance did, v’s cyclists in pretty much the rest of the world refusing to forgive him.

Jason Etter
Jason Etter
5 years ago
Reply to  Tucker

You’re floating an idea that has no statistics to back up/refute. It’s a hollow “argument” in that there is no answer. You’re also suggesting it’s tied to some sort of patriotism. Which could be a thing, not a thing, or partially a thing. Another factor is in how Americans think of things in general compared to Europeans. Americans are a lot more “wild west” in their thinking than Europe. A whole lot more. It may have nothing to do with patriotism and be purely driven by culture.

Padrote
Padrote
5 years ago
Reply to  Jason Etter

Ideas with no statistics to back them up, kinda like your nebulous information about sociopaths up there

Jason Etter
Jason Etter
5 years ago
Reply to  Padrote

The difference is that you can actually find data on my claims. And you also have me, a borderline sociopath, who knows quite a few sociopaths and has a long history in many competitive environments giving you some insight. You start your post with “I winder…..”. I on the other hand don’t wonder at all.

Padrote
Padrote
5 years ago
Reply to  Jason Etter

Well I dont know if youre actually a sociopath but youre definitely bad at posting on the internet and making cogent arguments

JBikes
JBikes
5 years ago
Reply to  Jason Etter

What data? There is data to prove Americans are as a whole are more “wild west” than europeans? Love to see that.

As for “borderline sociopath”…
No, people will exhibit a wide range of traits associated with antisocial personality disorder. There is no such thing as a “borderline sociopath”.
There is also a closely related narcissistic personality disorder which can exhibit similar outward traits and self-justified behaviors.
If you know you exhibit these traits, please seek help. These attributes aren’t enviable nor productive to your long term health.

Jason Etter
Jason Etter
5 years ago
Reply to  JBikes

Explain to me why I need to “get help” because I’m a sociopath? What is wrong with being a sociopath? Without sounding like a “racist”. This ought to be interesting.

Bob
Bob
5 years ago
Reply to  Tucker

The Europeans dont seem to have any problems forgiving the European athletes who cheat so why cant Americans forgive the American athletes. Lance had some very good points about the hypocrisy of both the sport and its fans. I mean look at Valverde and Contador, they seem to be the Bell of the ball after their ban.

Fred Gravelly
Fred Gravelly
5 years ago

The guy is still a huge dbag and always was.
It’s sweet that some of you ‘forgive’ him, but for the reat of us, just know it’s ok to dislike the dickens out of this disgusting human, the uci and all the other cheaters out there, forever!

Now, on a dysfunctional entertainment level, this is the stuff of legends!!

Jason Etter
Jason Etter
5 years ago
Reply to  Fred Gravelly

Pssssst, guess what. Most people are dirtbags and have no moral compass. If you get spun out over sh!tty people……you must be spun out all the time. Or you’re selective on your application of outrage.

pm732
5 years ago

somewhat sad he hasn’t given floyd landis any credit for originating the viewpoint he now espouses.

VeloKitty
VeloKitty
5 years ago

> Sociopaths do all sorts of nice things, act gracious,
> help people, etc. It’s a means to and end.

Livestrong… hello?

Arnold
Arnold
5 years ago

Pro sports are all spectacle. There isn’t anything real about them. Flopping soccer players, 350 pound American footballers doing the 40 in 4.6, Pippo going up the road like he had a motor, pro skiing of any kind. . .if we pay to watch, or advertisers pay so we can watch, then we are complicit. Doping is everywhere and getting angry about it is naïveté.

Cord
Cord
5 years ago

If Lance felt he had to cheat to be competitive, then so be it. However that has nothing to do with what a nasty person he became, and how he tried to ruin peoples lives. In his own words, everyone was cheating, yet the other cheats managed to cheat without throwing every man and woman he could under the bus. That in my eyes, is what is inexcusable, not the actual cheating.

rogsim
5 years ago

He needs to just fade into obscurity as a sad footnote in cycling’s history. His tainted legacy has already been cemented, now he’s just grasping for relevance. It’s sad and pathetic.

Prince Hoarder
Prince Hoarder
5 years ago

Not to hijack the discussion but early on in the thread JBikes expressed concern that Lance’s fall from grace contributed to road cycling’s reduced participation. I do not think so. I’ve worked in the trade for more than 30 years. It’s cyclical, no pun intended and we never know what will affect what. There was no Canary in the Coal Mine when Dave Mirra hit the X Games but 20″ bike sales went nuts. Like Sting Rays in the sixties. Greg LeMond’s effect on young males meant riders taking up racing in the ’80’s. Then the MTB boom. And later Lance came along, didn’t die, came back to the top and the Lance Effect was clear (after about a year or two of expansion). Road bike sales went up a lot. Racing licenses did too. And in all cases these growth spurts begat down cycles. What’s at the root? Why does it cycle down? I choose to keep it simple; cycling is HARD. It’s a time consuming activity. People go all in for a while and then they wander off to try other stuff.

Our current problem? Two younger generations have lots of alternatives and haven’t grown up on bicycles like us Boomers and X’s did. No one has replaced us.

And if you have brainy kids who fancy becoming doctors? Steer them toward Orthopedic Surgery. Millennial’s and Z’s are discovering the great outdoors and they are going to crash a lot.

Right, sorry, back to Sociopath vs OK guy!

Tim
Tim
5 years ago

When thinking of LA or any person in general, we need to: look at the overall balance of good and bad both within the person’s actual lifetime and also beyond it; remember that an overall 51-49 positive balance is not very impressive; keep in mind both that putting forgiveness within reach of everyone creates moral hazard and that putting it in the reach of no one greatly reduces the chances that anyone will seek to redress past negative actions.
I think that what is horrible about LA is not the doping- probably almost everyone in the Tour, if not everyone outright, dopes. What is awful is the bullying of people, often ordinary Joes and Janes, who said he was doping before the story finally broke. That is truly awful.
A few have brought up Livestrong and Armstrong’s support for cancer patients. Livestrong cannot be discounted. Even if LA is a sociopath as some here have claimed, that does not change the fact that Livestrong has helped thousands of cancer patients and promoted healthy living in general. Those are real benefits for individuals and for society that go well beyond the small number of people he egregiously harmed. It also looks to be an organization that will outlive LA himself, meaning his actions have led to a chain reaction of good that will go on indefinitely, regardless of whether he is a sociopath or not. On the other hand, in the back of my mind is the question of whether Livestrong actually is what it seems to be- many charities are at best inefficient at helping people and at worst are money collection scams. I don’t know how effective or ineffective Livestrong is, but the answer to that question is key I think in making an overall balance of LA’s actions.
Let’s say Livestrong is what it seems to be- an effective charity for helping people with cancer and for promoting healthy living. That puts Lance’s overall value in net positive territory, even if there are understandable evils (doping) and totally egregious ones (bullying) on the negative side. I’d say the proper attitude towards LA then is- we should ask if he is truly contrite about the harms he has done, but also ask more about what he has concretely done to make amends to the people he bullied. If the answer to both of those questions is yes, in my view we can forgive him, although we should not ever completely forget his past behavior.

Jenny Kallista
Jenny Kallista
5 years ago

sure, plenty of athletes dope. some are allowed back to their sport, and others not.

few other athletes in recent history were as vicious or cruel in their attempts to cover up their doping, and for that I find Armstrong to be unworthy of complete forgiveness.

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