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SOC16: Prototype Turner Flux trail bike hints towards more carbon future for brand

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Turner Flux carbon 275 mountain bike mtb trailIMG_4159

Maybe you’ve noticed recently that the Burner is no longer listed on Turner’s website. As one of my first questions for Dave Turner, the answer was that once the new carbon RFX was introduced, it was simply more popular than the Burner. More than just out selling the Burner, the success of the RFX v4.0 provides insight into the future of Turner bikes.

One of the legendary brands of the industry, Turner Bikes have been around since 1994. That original Burner set a precedent for quality, American made aluminum frames. Perhaps it’s fitting that the Burner v3.1 may be one of the last American made aluminum Turners ever made…

Turner Flux carbon 275 mountain bike mtb trailIMG_4150

Speaking with DT, it was clear that the move away from domestically produced aluminum wasn’t an easy call to make. Ultimately, it seems to boil down to more people that like the idea of U.S. built aluminum frames than there are people that were actually buying them. The success of the RFX is proof that Turners are in demand – just more so in carbon than aluminum it would seem. It’s hard to argue with a bike like the RFX that has more travel than the Burner but is lighter weight. The market has spoken, and the cost of US made aluminum is just too close to the cost of carbon fiber for most consumers to justify.

After the closing of Zen Fabrications recently who was building the aluminum Turners along with the fact that raw aluminum materials were becoming harder to get at that level, the decision was made to reposition Turner with a new focus on performance carbon frame. DT mentioned that he still though aluminum could be a viable frame material for Turner Bikes, but at a more competitive price point which ultimately would mean producing them over seas along with their carbon bikes.

Turner Flux carbon 275 mountain bike mtb trailIMG_4157

Turner Flux carbon 275 mountain bike mtb trailIMG_4153 Turner Flux carbon 275 mountain bike mtb trailIMG_4155

Which brings us to the new Flux. Filling in for the previous aluminum trail bike, the new Flux will be based around 120mm of rear and 130mm of front travel. Still utilizing the DW Link suspension system, the Flux carbon will take a lot of muscular styling cues from the new RFX. This particular bike is a pilot sample so a few finishing details will change for production, but the frame is mostly there.

DT says this Flux is aimed at the same customer, someone looking for a light weight, capable trail machine without a ton of travel. The geometry will be a bit refined with shorter chain stays and a slacker head tube angle but the same BB height.

Turner Flux carbon 275 mountain bike mtb trailIMG_4156 Turner Flux carbon 275 mountain bike mtb trailIMG_4154

Since this bike will be designed around 27.5″ tires and not Plus or 29″, there will not be a Boost rear end. DT points out that they sell mostly frames, so the use of a 142x12mm axle allows customers who already have a fortune invested in wheels to keep using them.

Turner Flux carbon 275 mountain bike mtb trailIMG_4152 Turner Flux carbon 275 mountain bike mtb trailIMG_4151

Like the RFX, cable routing is kept external with the exception of a stealth dropper routing, with their No More Zip Ties clamp on cable guides. Other details include a tapered head tube, PF30 bottom bracket, and replaceable threads on the post mount disc tabs. Eventually the Flux will hit the market some time this summer in the matte white finish shown here with pricing TBD.

turnerbikes.com

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JBikes
JBikes
8 years ago

I don’t blame Turner, I blame the consumer, but that said it seems Americans aren’t an expert manufacturing center of bikes. So maybe its better we concentrate on what we are good at (???), and trade with those that have expertise in carbon/Al bike manufacture. Just hope the other countries follow some level of safety and environmental standards close or better than ours.

Anyway, glad to see this. Was getting worried about Turner but it seems the lack of models was due to Zen closing up. For the record, I have the v2.2 Sultan – love it. Has “long CS” but in comparison to other bikes those offer some big advantages on tech climbs and honestly don’t even noticed them anymore expect on show-off manuals (not the kind required for actual riding)

JBikes
JBikes
8 years ago

BTW – the 12×142 decision. Not sure I agree. Do people really think their 142 hub wheels can’t be made to fit a 148 frameset, especially people that buy $3k framesets?
But a 142 frameset prevents one from ever buying 148 boost wheels. On 650b, probably not a huge deal, but Turner should ensure the 29/27.5+ are 148 compatible.

Groghunter
Groghunter
8 years ago
Reply to  JBikes

Considering adapting to 148 requires using a brake spacer, which increases shear force on the brake bolts, & lateral force on the tabs, quite possibly to a dangerous degree, & that I haven’t even seen an option for people with centerlock wheelsets, yes, people probably would prefer 142.

Marc Lindarets
8 years ago
Reply to  Groghunter

While I can’t speak for the other adapter makers on the marker, I will say that we wouldn’t ever have considered bringing the Boostinator to market if the rotor hardware was marginal- let alone unsafe. We know the stakes associated with messing with brakes: from engineers to our product liability insurers, we had a LOT of eyes on our kits before committing to the product.

The bolts we provide are the appropriate length and four times stronger than needed to accommodate the strongest brakes on the market and a 183mm rear rotor (no rotor spacer is needed for front kits). Read the directions, take your time, and you’ll be A-OK.

Marc Lindarets
8 years ago
Reply to  Marc Lindarets

^on the market, not the marker

JBikes
JBikes
8 years ago
Reply to  Groghunter

Centerlock wheelsets are the only technical hurdle and probably not convertible (or only by spacing the caliper, which may be hard with a post mount). Properly torqued, brake and rotor bolts shouldn’t see any appreciable shear force (its the clamping force that holds – just like your car’s wheel bolts). if your relying on shear on multi-bolt systems with such poor radial tolerance, you’ll break bolts all the time as you will really only have one holding at any given time.

Groghunter
Groghunter
8 years ago
Reply to  JBikes

Can’t say I agree that there’s no appreciable shear force in a brake disc mount, considering the forces involved. All that’s required is for it to overcome the clamping friction, & there’s an awful lot of of force applied against that fitting. the “3-bolt cause I’m an XC racer” people sure had problems. Apparently it was at least enough of a concern for Lindarets to use stronger than stock bolts on their kits, to acknowledge Marc’s comment above(though I’m well aware that could be more about managing customer expectations than because it was truly needed.) Consider also that people miss-install stuff, don’t torque it well, etc.

But bottom line, their reasoning makes a lot of sense: if you sell primarily frames, your customers are going to pay more attention to compatibility with their existing parts, than other companies, & the bike doesn’t really need boost for the application.

Considering the rampant rumors about Boost part duex, mo’ boost, mo’ problems, I think there’s another danger here for a manufacturer: you don’t want to feed into the perception that runs rampant among a certain segment of customers, that you’re deliberately making every new bike not work with old parts. If I knew another boost standard was coming(I’m not THAT connected in the industry to really know,) I’d probably opt to release this years bikes in 142, to appease customers that don’t like the changes, & then I’d try to get ahead of 2boost2newwheels next year, & sell it as “we didn’t change for the crappy half measure version, instead we waited for the real, no kidding this one is going to be around for the next 15 years version, because we care about you, the customers.”

Veganpotter
Veganpotter
8 years ago
Reply to  Groghunter

It’s stupid to not make a boost bike in 2016. If you’re hesitant, have different dropouts available. It’s such and easy solution that opens things up for everyone

JBikes
JBikes
8 years ago
Reply to  Groghunter

IMO, the 3 bolt XC thing caused issues due to reduced clamping force and distortion of the disc. This results in relative motion, which loosens bolts, and from there they go into complete shear very quickly.
For a multi bolt system to work properly against shear forces, each bolt really needs to be body fit or conical to what would be the rotor. This isn’t the case with disc brake rotors.
A top quality 5mm metric bolt only has a shear strength of ~112 kpsi. On a 6 bolt rotor, this amounts to a shield yield force on a 29er of about 900 lbs at the wheel (not that much given rider and bike will weigh maybe 200 lbs) I wouldn’t rely on shear…

I agree with your last paragraph though.

Nerd talk done. Hopefully people get this out of the conversation – when installing/replacing rotors: clean your rotor, clean your hubs, use a torque wrench and a thread locker. Check tightness periodically. Don’t over tighten.

AC
AC
8 years ago
Reply to  Groghunter

Or you’d develop dropouts with interchangeable parts to work with both 142 and boost, to show your customers that you’re making the bike compatible with every reasonable configuration available.

Then they’d see the PF BB and the cred would be lost again.

Blake
Blake
8 years ago
Reply to  Groghunter

You can fit a 142 wheel into a 148 frame depending on how flexible the rear end is. I have seen it done and it works fine, probably would void the warranty though ;).

For reference it was done on a trek carbon remedy 29.

Brian Bak
Brian Bak
8 years ago
Reply to  Groghunter

If you made a force analysis on this case you would se that the shear forces do not increase. The bolts are longer and will therefore deform more but the shear force on the bolts is the same. The force moment on the “taps” on the frame would increase. But if you consider the relative small change in the moment arm this will be a very small increase

AC
AC
8 years ago
Reply to  JBikes

Yeah, that strikes me as a poor decision. I”m not about to go buy a new bike or wheels just to get 148, but I certainly would not buy a frame right now that wasn’t 148 nor a hub that wasn’t convertible, whether by the hub maker or LIndarets.

Groghunter
Groghunter
8 years ago

See also: why people feel like Devinicis aluminum pricing doesn’t make sense, but that their carbon pricing is a great deal: aluminum frames welded in Canuckistan, carbon molded in Taiwan. It’s hard to not justify spending another $500 to get carbon.

Marc Lindarets
8 years ago

As a(n alloy) Flux owner, I’m excited to see the model returning to the range. While I would love to see more US-made frames, the market has moved away from metal and the the price difference between US aluminum and good overseas carbon has narrowed enough that the added weight and reduced resale price of alloy doesn’t make much sense.

I know that this was a hard decision for DT to make- but I’d rather have imported Turners than no Turners at all.

Jon
Jon
8 years ago

I still love my Burner v3.0 as it’s a “do everything” bike. Sure the aluminum frame a a bit heavy, but it’s not rotational weight!

Kevin Brewster
8 years ago

I have a Alum Devinci Spartan, carbon came out a bit after I bought it. Really happy with the Alum, amazingly well built. Would like the weight of the carbon , but still appreciate the peace of mind of the alum. With the lower bracket , definitely makes contact with obstacles. It is a bike to push , so have definitely had a few offs.. I think with a shorter travel trail bike like the Troy I would lean towards the carbon.

chase
chase
8 years ago

My Burner v3.1 is simply awesome and the last of the USA made aluminum frames. I would agonize over replacing it for a CF RFX. Maybe if the RFX gets a Fox X2 CS shock option this year…….maybe.

stiingya
8 years ago

It will be interesting to see where Alchemy ends up in a few years. US Carbon = higher cost/lower numbers of unit’s sold. I “thought” that was also Turners business model and customer base?

Don’t get me wrong, personally I’d buy a “whole RFX based bike” ready to ride made in Asia over just a made in USA Alchemy “frame” for the same cost ANY DAY.

Duzzi
Duzzi
8 years ago

Turner bikes still manage to be some of the ugliest around. And details like the “triangle reinforcement” at the seat tube are quite disconcerting from the point of view of misusing a technology. They do deserve a price for managing to make a carbon bike look like a cheap aluminum one!!!!!

stuffy
stuffy
8 years ago
Reply to  Duzzi

It’s a homage to all the burritos, tacos, and square tube stock of yonder days. Lighten up.

Ugly misuse of technology? See: internet comment sections. Or: pretty much anything composite by Campagnolo.

The matte white finish is hot. But I fear it’s destined to get thrashed up right quick.

UglyDuck
UglyDuck
8 years ago
Reply to  Duzzi

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder……name me a beautiful looking carbon frame? Ibis, no!, Santa Cruz, no!, SpecialEd, no!…….the list of “ugly” frames is very long

Coop
Coop
8 years ago
Reply to  UglyDuck

I personally like the look of Turners and one thing I’ve admired about them is that they’re more designed and built for purpose/function than fashion. My alloy Flux gets few style points especially with that boxy, erector-set looking swingarm, but it just performs so well and I love the fact that it’s a US made frame. I’m also not sold on Boost especially for 27.5 wheels and glad to see DT turning his nose to that non-standard. I sure wish he could have kept a standard threaded BB instead of the PF30, but I’ll probably overlook that and buy this frame anyway. 🙂

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